|
|
| Author |
Message |
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1369
|
 Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: |
 |
|
From the article...
Tony Snow dismissed it as "65 people who are going to be able to get more press than the hundreds of thousands who have come back and said they're proud of their service."
That pretty much sums it up....
out in California, a similar even happened...12 of folks in that crowd were active duty, reservists, or national guardsmen. Meanwhile, and unreported by the media  ...about 4000 Marines are getting ready to leave in the next week or so...to do their duty...quietly, with dignity and honor.
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | about 4000 Marines are getting ready to leave in the next week or so...to do their duty |
why is going to iraq their duty?... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 9:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
ps. you must have missed this part...
| article wrote wrote: | | Sgt. Liam Madden, 22, an active-duty Marine and Iraq war veteran, said the petition had about 1,000 signatures, about 70 percent of which are active-duty military, while the rest are reservists or members of the National Guard |
so with only 4000 going quietly to keep their free dental...sounds like the wind of change is finally blowing for the positive through the military...
i see 1000 good men standing for what is right and telling the white house...NO MORE!!!...GOD bless them everyone... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1369
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
[quote="theseldomscene"]ps. you must have missed this part...
| article wrote wrote: | | Sgt. Liam Madden, 22, an active-duty Marine and Iraq war veteran, said the petition had about 1,000 signatures, about 70 percent of which are active-duty military, while the rest are reservists or members of the National Guard |
I saw that...be interesting to see what repurcussions he faces. Granted he did not go in uniform, but he did make a point of identifying himself as a Marine Sgt. I'm no lawyer, but his actions are in the same area as "mutiny" from where I see. See, he wasn't conscripted...he voluntarily joined. If he's now disillusioned, well, I'm sorry, but life is tough. Serve out the contract and then don't re-enlist...which, since he's a Sgt, he may have already done once...promotions are a little slower in the Marine Corps...
| theseldomscene wrote: |
so with only 4000 going quietly to keep their free dental...sounds like the wind of change is finally blowing for the positive through the military... |
If you think anyone serves for the free dental you either a) think there is a major dental problem in this country or b) have no idea why people serve.
For what it's worth, there are about 130,000 troops in Iraq and a larger number that supports them from Navy ships and Air Force Bases in the region...the 4000 I referenced are relieving a similar sized group so they can a get a breather. Of that 4000, a little over half of them just got back from Iraq 5 months ago. I'd be willing to bet dimes to donuts that not one of them signed that petition....
| theseldomscene wrote: |
i see 1000 good men standing for what is right and telling the white house...NO MORE!!!...GOD bless them everyone... |
and I see 1000 cowards that unwilling to live up to their obligations, thankful that better men than them have stood tall in order to give them a country where dissent is met with debate and not beheading...
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
[quote=" | Quote: | | PonderingI saw that...be interesting to see what repurcussions he faces. Granted he did not go in uniform, but he did make a point of identifying himself as a Marine Sgt. I'm no lawyer, but his actions are in the same area as "mutiny" from where I see. See, he wasn't conscripted...he voluntarily joined. If he's now disillusioned, well, I'm sorry, but life is tough. Serve out the contract and then don't re-enlist...which, since he's a Sgt, he may have already done once...promotions are a little slower in the Marine Corps... |
yes this i understand...but i disagree with you ...if one is under and oath to defend the constitutaion of the u.s. and obey the president...then it would seem that with a president like we have now that disregards the rights and freedoms the law provides....even railing against them in some cases like this president has....then i would say...good job to the men who refuse to follow his evil orders of madness...  ...he is leaving office in complete and utter shame...i promise...
| Quote: | | If you think anyone serves for the free dental you either a) think there is a major dental problem in this country or b) have no idea why people serve. |
no sir ...maybe it is you that has no idea...that was a very broad statement ou made...people serve for the benefits....are you saying they don't join for dental, medical, educational benefits...then you sir have no idea why people serve...
| Quote: | | For what it's worth, there are about 130,000 troops in Iraq and a larger number that supports them from Navy ships and Air Force Bases in the region...the 4000 I referenced are relieving a similar sized group so they can a get a breather. Of that 4000, a little over half of them just got back from Iraq 5 months ago. I'd be willing to bet dimes to donuts that not one of them signed that petition.... |
but has been shown here beofre...many who have went...to iraq especially...have said it is wrong and being handled incorrectly...as it is...so give me my donut...
| Quote: | | and I see 1000 cowards that unwilling to live up to their obligations, thankful that better men than them have stood tall in order to give them a country where dissent is met with debate and not beheading... |
you think they are cowards?...no sir...it rakes a lot of nerve to stand up to an evil dictator like bush ha been shown to be.,..he is sheer wickedness and deceit...also...if the people of iraq want a country like you are describing...let them fight for it themselves...OH NEVERMIND!!!!...they had one then bush's goosesteppers came in and messd it up.. ...any honest, truth loving person would refuse to go...it is nothing but murder to do have any part of it...that is what the 'entire' military would be saying...if they were real men... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1369
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
ok...I'm tempted to go back point by point, but will resist the urge...
I will leave it at this. One of the things that makes America great is that the military submits its power to civilian authority. You don't really want the military to make policy (see South America and Africa for how successful that is)...just imagine...what if the 10Th Mountain Division decided that it didn't like Christians? What if the 82nd Airborne decided that homosexuals were bad and had no place in the US? See what I mean?
Military folks voluntarily set aside many of their personal rights to defend the rights of the civilian populace. If the populace decides that the war is wrong, they have 2 choices: 1) vote for a candidate that supports impeaching the president and lobby that candidate (if elected) to do so
2) use the state system to enter a Constitutional ammendment. It can be done and is within the Constitutional construct...
I suppose a third choice is open revolt, but generally Americans have worked within the system to affect change. It's slower, but less bloody.
As for the donut, I'll only pay up if one of the 4000 I ref'd shows up on the list of 1000 petitioners 
As for the "bad implemenation plan"...I agree. That was led by Paul Bremer. He's not a military guy. He ignored the advise from commanders on the ground. Politicians making military decisions is usually just as bad as Military folks making political decisions....
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:11 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| pondering wrote: | | On of the things that makes America great is that the military submits its power to civilian authority. |
| pondering wrote: | | Politicians making military decisions is usually just as bad as Military folks making political decisions |
Last edited by theseldomscene on Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
It is my humble opinion that TSS has absolutely no idea of what he is talking about.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
so?...that has never stopped you from speaking  .... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2534
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
How many times must one hit your head against a wall before you figure out that it will not be broken down with your head. Many of our service people in Iraq understand that this war is never going to go our way without turning it into some 51 state and changing it into America and they know this is not an option.
Time and time again the Iraqi government has been unwilling to stand up and enforce their own rules much less do what is right when we or others offer to help out. This "new Strategy" is really the same old strategy with new promises by their government that we never really believed anyway.
Al Maliki must somehow turn his government into a non-sectarian one in spite of the fact that it is the sects that are his supporters. Convince these sects that they must give up their power in exchange for being part of this government. Convince them that the government will cover their needs and protect them. In spite of their terrible record of failure.
Another problem is that the concept of revenge is so ingrained into their culture that it seems highly unlikely that they will be willing to do this. It is the eye for an eye written large which still stains the whole Muslims world.
The only way out of this mess is for these issues to be resolved and our soldiers cannot do any of that it must come from the Iraqis themselves. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 11:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| amen dim...and well spoken friend... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| dim12trav wrote: | | Many of our service people in Iraq understand that this war is never going to go our way without turning it into some 51 state and changing it into America and they know this is not an option. |
Many? Five... ten... 20.... 100.... how many is many?
| Quote: | | Time and time again the Iraqi government has been unwilling to stand up and enforce their own rules much less do what is right when we or others offer to help out. |
What on earth are you talking about here?
| Quote: | | Al Maliki must somehow turn his government into a non-sectarian one in spite of the fact that it is the sects that are his supporters. Convince these sects that they must give up their power in exchange for being part of this government. Convince them that the government will cover their needs and protect them. In spite of their terrible record of failure. |
Wait as second... didn't you just write that the government was unwilling stand up and enforce rules, yet you just listed... one, two, three, four... four differnent problems prohibiting him from enforcing them rules...
I'm not sure which argument I am supposed to be convinced by.
| Quote: | | The only way out of this mess is for these issues to be resolved and our soldiers cannot do any of that it must come from the Iraqis themselves. |
Again... you just said they were unwilling... or incapable (didn’t figure out which one it was) and now you are saying we can't help them... even though they can't help themselves... evidently. So... what should we do... just quit and come home in abject frustration?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2534
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 6:51 am Post subject: |
|
|
Trinity it seems you live in a bubble of Bush's making. Thousands of our troops have expressed disfavor of this "strategy", including several generals.
This surge is the second time the strategy has been tried. The first time Al Maliki's own government forbade us to go into the Sadr city part of Baghdad leaving the vast majority of the Shiite militias unaffected. Maliki it seems receives the majority of his political support from those same Shiite factions.
What it seems Maliki wants for us to do is to eliminate the threat from the Sunnis ensuring his political future. This amounts to ethnic cleansing and it is not something we are willing to do.
Just what do we want from the Iraqis anyway. Mostly why do we want it and they dont seem to want it themselves? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 7:59 am Post subject: |
|
|
| dim12trav wrote: | | Trinity it seems you live in a bubble of Bush's making. |
What... someone actually doesn't jump on this Bush hating band wagon and all of a sudden they are... 'living in a bubble'. Are you kidding. All I'm doing is asking people to justify their statments and positions. And, as I have often found, they can't.
| Quote: | | Thousands of our troops have expressed disfavor of this "strategy", including several generals. |
Firstly... soldiers rarely give to hill of beans over strategy... they are more concerned about getting a shower more than once a month… so I know that is nothing but drivel. Second, those Generals... one of them (Baptise) I have worked for before. He is nothing but a narcissistic pretty boy bent on following in the political footsteps of his idol Wes Clarke. I don’t believe a word coming out of that hole. Have you considered what the overwhelming majority of the Generals have said about our strategy?
| Quote: | | This surge is the second time the strategy has been tried. The first time Al Maliki's own government forbade us to go into the Sadr city part of Baghdad leaving the vast majority of the Shiite militias unaffected. Maliki it seems receives the majority of his political support from those same Shiite factions. |
Hmmm... he thought he could take care of the problem... couldn't... so now we can't? I'm not sure how that all works out.
| Quote: | | What it seems Maliki wants for us to do is to eliminate the threat from the Sunnis ensuring his political future. This amounts to ethnic cleansing and it is not something we are willing to do. |
He knows that if he is not protected from the Sunni's... he'll be killed. Even he realizes though, that removing them from the political equation is not possible... and that in order to maintain an semblance of civility here they have to be included in the government. You are just plain wrong on this.
| Quote: | | Just what do we want from the Iraqis anyway. Mostly why do we want it and they dont seem to want it themselves? |
We want their government to not support terrorism.
We want their country to provide for the basic security of it's citizens.
We want them to not be a safe haven for terrorist organizations.
We want them to be a consistent trading partner.
I think they want these same things. It is those factions within the country that don't. They want the power to spread their forms of tyranny and hate throughout the region and the world...
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
