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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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 Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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That's not gonna get you off the hook, JP. You used the term 'essence'. If you don't know what a term means, simply don't use it.
At best, you simply equivocated on the term "essence". At worst, your concept is fatally flawed.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:36 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: |
I would assert that this is the main reason many men deny the truth of scripture in relation to the triune nature of God - they cannot comprehend how such a thing can be so they are driven by their nature to denounce or dismiss it. |
amen... |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | That's nto gonna get you off the hook, JP |
I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I was on any sort of 'hook'.
| Quote: | | You used the term 'essence'. |
Indeed I did.
| Quote: | | If you don't know what a term means, simply don't use it. |
Actually, I know full well what it means. It appears sir, that you are the one having difficulty understanding the essence of essence in relation to the Triune God.
| Quote: | | At best, you simply equivocated on the term "essence" |
No. Not at all. I would challenge you to demonstrate such.
| Quote: | | At worst, your concept is fatally flawed. |
That's entirely possible, but highly unlikely. I think what is flawed is your ability to understand what is being stated.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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JP,
Perhaps you mistyped when you wrote that each person of the Godhead has a distinct essence? Or did you mistype when you wrote that they all share one essence? You see, ya just can't have it both ways: that would be equivocation, good sir.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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No sir, I disagree. It is your thinking which asserts that.
Each person of the trinity is fully divine and fully the person in consideration: Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Each shares the same essence of the One True God, in totality, and each encompasses their individual essence.
It is not equivocation sir, just the truth of the Triune God.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Each person of the trinity is fully divine and fully the person in consideration: Father, Son, or Holy Spirit. Each shares the same essence of the One True God, in totality, and each encompasses their individual essence.
It is not equivocation sir, just the truth of the Triune God. |
Let's see, JP.
| Quote: |
Essence:
the basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing or its significant individual feature or features |
Given this definition, it is logically impossible for the essence of one person of the trinity to be distinct from the essence of the godhead. If you think otherwise, by all means explain yourself.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Given this definition, it is logically impossible for the essence of one person of the trinity to be distinct from the essence of the godhead. If you think otherwise, by all means explain yourself. |
Tell me, what is it that I have not already explained.
You want me to logically define the total nature of God? How am I to do that? It seems to me that you are ignoring much of what I said already.
1 Corinthians 2:5-11 AMP So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God. (6) Yet when we are among the full-grown (spiritually mature Christians who are ripe in understanding), we do impart a [higher] wisdom (the knowledge of the divine plan previously hidden); but it is indeed not a wisdom of this present age or of this world nor of the leaders and rulers of this age, who are being brought to nothing and are doomed to pass away. (7) But rather what we are setting forth is a wisdom of God once hidden [from the human understanding] and now revealed to us by God--[that wisdom] which God devised and decreed before the ages for our glorification [to lift us into the glory of His presence]. (8) None of the rulers of this age or world perceived and recognized and understood this, for if they had, they would never have crucified the Lord of glory. (9) But, on the contrary, as the Scripture says, What eye has not seen and ear has not heard and has not entered into the heart of man, [all that] God has prepared (made and keeps ready) for those who love Him [who hold Him in affectionate reverence, promptly obeying Him and gratefully recognizing the benefits He has bestowed]. [Isa. 64:4; 65:17.] (10) Yet to us God has unveiled and revealed them by and through His Spirit, for the [Holy] Spirit searches diligently, exploring and examining everything, even sounding the profound and bottomless things of God [the divine counsels and things hidden and beyond man's scrutiny]. (11) For what person perceives (knows and understands) what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so no one discerns (comes to know and comprehend) the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 13:9-12 AMP For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect). (10) But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded). (11) When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside. (12) For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].
Indeed, are we not told that we see through a glass darkly? Would you have me explain the nature of God using the wisdom of men when we know that such a thing is an impossibility?
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Indeed, are we not told that we see through a glass darkly? Would you have me explain the nature of God using the wisdom of men when we know that such a thing is an impossibility? |
No, RevJP, I aks no such thing of you. I only ask you to define your terms in an unequivical manner. If God is such a mystery, then do not burden yourself by trying to define Him as one God in three persons.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I only ask you to define your terms in an unequivical manner. |
I have done so.
What you assert is that God, the omnipotent creator cannot have the essence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit AND the essence of the One True God. I simply don't have the arrogance to suggest what God is or is not capable of.
As far as my terms go, I have clearly demonstrated my use of essence, which you have not addressed as it was offered.
| Quote: |
If God is such a mystery, then do not burden yourself by trying to define Him as one God in three persons. |
Sorry sir, it was the whole of scripture which has defined Him as such, not I.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As far as my terms go, I have clearly demonstrated my use of essence, which you have not addressed as it was offered. |
Of course I addressed it. There can be only one essence. This is a logically necessary truth. You can even ask Brian Bosse.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know who Brian Bosse is nor does it matter. You want to understand and define God on your terms when He is beyond those terms. THAT is not logical.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You want to understand and define God on your terms when He is beyond those terms. THAT is not logical. |
Nonsense. I have not made any claims about God. I have only been analyzing your terminology, and I have found it inconsistent. Logically, there can be only one essence of a being. Thus, if each person of the Godhead is wholly God, as you suggest, it becomes meaningless to speak of distinct essences of the three persons, unless of course you are equivocating.
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"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5141
Location: Missouri
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Logically, there can be only one essence of a being. |
1 Corinthians 3:18-20 HCSB No one should deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks he is wise in this age, he must become foolish so that he can become wise. (19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, since it is written: He catches the wise in their craftiness-- (20) and again, The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are futile.
As for me and mine, we will err on the side of the Lord.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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 i love you... |
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