 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
|
 Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:47 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Jp,
This is from your statement of faith:
| Quote: | | The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being. |
Let's try to unravel this cryptic language. Are you saying that the three persosn of the Godhead are one being?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6905
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I don't think it is cryptic at all apoc. I personally believe that statement is very clear in its meaning, perhaps you would care to tell me what you do not understand in what is said?
The Triune God, revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each having their own distinct personal attributes but without division of His nature, essence or His being.
I'm not really sure how much simpler I can make the statement.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6905
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
BTW, I looked up 'modalism'.
No, I'm not a modalist, I believe scripture too much to accept that errant philosophy...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JP,
| Quote: | The Triune God, revealed to us as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit each having their own distinct personal attributes but without division of His nature, essence or His being.
I'm not really sure how much simpler I can make the statement. |
Abstract terms such as these as plagued philosophical discourse for millenia. I was a philosophy major and I can tell you that the words that you are using can be interpreted to mean different things. I think I might get a better idea of what you are saying if you answer the question I asked before. Are you saying that God is three persons yet one being? Work with me for a lil' while, JP, so that we can effectively communicate.
You say that you are not a modalist. I would sugegst then that you desist using the analogy of one person with three roles, for that is precisely what modalism teaches. I understand that it must be very hard for you to explain what is meant by "one God in three persons", but I'm trying to encourage you to take on the task.
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6905
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Take on the task?
You want me to take on the task of explaining something that I cannot fully understand? Why would any sane person do that?
I am not able to fully understand God or His nature. I can understand that which He has revealed through scripture and the understanding of that scripture given to me through the Holy Spirit, yet we all know (if we read scritpure at all) that God's nature is not fully revealed therein and our understanding of that which has been revealed is limited by our nature.
But let me clear some things up for you apoc, I will try to do it in such a fashion so that even one who majored in philosophy could understand:
Nature:
the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character.
the instincts or inherent tendencies directing conduct
Essence:
the basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing or its significant individual feature or features
the inward nature, true substance, or constitution of anything, as opposed to what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, etc.
something that exists, esp. a spiritual or immaterial entity.
Being:
the fact of existing; existence (as opposed to nonexistence).
conscious, mortal existence; life: O
substance or nature
something that exists
that which has actuality either materially or in idea.
absolute existence in a complete or perfect state, lacking no essential characteristic; essence.
Nature, essence, and being are only as abstract as one wishes to make them. Existence is not abstract, all beings exists, all that exists has an essence and a governing nature. God exists, has always existed and will always exist. He has an essential nature which is revealed to us through His Holy Inspired Word, part of His being is His manifestation in three distinct 'persons'.
| Quote: | The word "trinity" is a term used to denote the Christian doctrine that God exists as a unity of three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each of the persons is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is not the totality of the Trinity. Each has a will, loves, and says "I", and "You" when speaking. The Father is not the same person as the Son who is not the same person as the Holy Spirit who is not the same person as the Father. Each is divine, yet there are not three gods, but one God. There are three individual subsistences, or persons. The word "subsistence" means something that has a real existence. The word "person" denotes individuality and self awareness. The Trinity is three of these, though the latter term has become the dominant one used to describe the individual aspects of God known as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Included in the doctrine of the Trinity is a strict monotheism which is the teaching that there exists in all the universe a single being known as God who is self-existent and unchangeable (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8). Therefore, it is important to note that the doctrine of the trinity is not polytheistic as some of its critics proclaim. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.
* The Trinity
o God is three persons
o Each person is divine
o There is only one God.
Many theologians admit that the term "person" is not a perfect word to describe the three individual aspects/foci found in God. When we normally use the word person, we understand it to mean physical individuals who exist as separate beings from other individuals. But in God there are not three entities, nor three beings. God, is a trinity of persons consisting of one substance and one essence. God is numerically one. Yet, within the single divine essence are three individual subsistences that we call persons.
* Each of the three persons is completely divine in nature though each is not the totality of the Godhead.
* Each of the three persons is not the other two persons.
* Each of the three persons is related to the other two, but are distinct from them. |
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TBax
King of the Jungle
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 1969
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JP,
Hi, 
| JP wrote: | | You want me to take on the task of explaining something that I cannot fully understand? Why would any sane person do that? |
Essence? Nature? Forget philosophical explanations. Stick to scripture. 
Deut 6:4 “Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
So it appears there is only one person who is God, and he is called Jehovah.
Matt 22:42 “What do YOU think about the Christ? Whose son is he?” They said to him: “David’s.” 43 He said to them: “How, then, is it that David by inspiration calls him ‘Lord,’ saying, 44 ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet”’?
Here Jehovah is speaking to Jesus, so Jesus cannot be Jehovah who is actually God. Could this be right? Is the Father Jehovah the only one who is God?
In prayer to his Father Jesus said JOHN 17:3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.
Yea, seems right. What did the apostles think?
Out of all the gods that are worshiped, and lords followed they said: 1 COR 8:6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
One God, the Father, who's name is Jehovah. Case closed. No trinity.
Later.
_________________
Agape,
TBax |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JP,
| Quote: | | You want me to take on the task of explaining something that I cannot fully understand? Why would any sane person do that? |
You misunderstand. My questions concerns semantics: I merely want to know what it means to say that God is three persons yet one being.
| Quote: | | But let me clear some things up for you apoc, I will try to do it in such a fashion so that even one who majored in philosophy could understand: |
Are you being condescending, JP?
| Quote: | Nature:
the particular combination of qualities belonging to a person, animal, thing, or class by birth, origin, or constitution; native or inherent character. |
Yet earlier you tried to argue that a person is a totality of qualities. If God has one nature, then how can we say that he is three persons?
| Quote: | | Nature, essence, and being are only as abstract as one wishes to make them. Existence is not abstract, all beings exists, all that exists has an essence and a governing nature. God exists, has always existed and will always exist. He has an essential nature which is revealed to us through His Holy Inspired Word, part of His being is His manifestation in three distinct 'persons'. |
So are the three persons merely manifestations of one underlying essence?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6905
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | You misunderstand. My questions concerns semantics: I merely want to know what it means to say that God is three persons yet one being. |
Sorry, I can't make it any clearer.
| Quote: | | Are you being condescending, JP? |
Not at all. I was being sarcastic.
| Quote: | | Yet earlier you tried to argue that a person is a totality of qualities. |
No sir, I did not try to argue that. I started with a definition for 'person', and proceeded to define being, nature, and essence. However, that entire tangent is irrelevant, as you are pulling from the definition of 'nature' and seeming to try and argue that it contradicts something that I stated previously, which it does not.
| Quote: | | If God has one nature, then how can we say that he is three persons? |
Um.... If it were me, I would start with the understanding that God's nature is One True God manifested in three distinct persons and not try to make nature and person synonomous.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | If it were me, I would start with the understanding that God's nature is One True God manifested in three distinct persons and not try to make nature and person synonomous. |
I see. I can certainly see the validity in the idea that God manifests Himself as three persons, but a manifestation is not to be confused with the essence. Are we in agreement?
Also, JP, you now say that you never tried to argue that a person is a totality of qualities. Why then did you cite the definition of 'person' that you initially cited?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6905
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Also, JP, you now say that you never tried to argue that a person is a totality of qualities. Why then did you cite the definition of 'person' that you initially cited? |
You asked for a definition of 'person' and I provided such.
But, to delve into that a bit more; a person is the totality of qualities of that personhood. Jesus is the totality of the qualities of the person Jesus, the Father is the totality of the qualities of the Father, and the Holy Spirit, likewise, is the totality of the qualities of the person of the Holy Spirit.
| Quote: | | I can certainly see the validity in the idea that God manifests Himself as three persons, but a manifestation is not to be confused with the essence. Are we in agreement? |
I cannot say I agree unless I understand what your meaning is. Is the One True God's essence consisting of His three subsistencies? Yes. Is the essence of each of the persons of the Godhead identical? Certainly, fully divine in nature, fully the One True God.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 4:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JP,
| Quote: | | Is the essence of each of the persons of the Godhead identical? Certainly, fully divine in nature, fully the One True God. |
This is why precise definitions are indispensable to a discussion such as this. If each person of the Godhead is of the same essence, then this rules out one of the definitions you gave previously.
| Quote: | Essence:
the basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing or its significant individual feature or features |
If individual features are understood to be "qualities and traits," then this definition is of no use to you. I would assume then that you had in mind either or both of the following:
| Quote: |
the inward nature, true substance, or constitution of anything, as opposed to what is accidental, phenomenal, illusory, etc.
something that exists, esp. a spiritual or immaterial entity. |
The first definition seems to rule out your idea that the three persons are manifestations, for how can a manifestation be of the essence?
The second definition just refers to something that exists and would be of no help to you.
I must ask why you have cited all of these definitions if you're not using words in these senses?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6905
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Essence:
the basic, real, and invariable nature of a thing or its significant individual feature or features
| Quote: | | If individual features are understood to be "qualities and traits," then this definition is of no use to you. I would assume then that you had in mind either or both of the following: |
No sir. I contend that Jesus encompassed the essence of Jesus, and God. Likewise the Father and the Spirit encompassed the essences of their persons and God.
| Quote: | | The first definition seems to rule out your idea that the three persons are manifestations, for how can a manifestation be of the essence? |
How can I be the essence of a husband and still be a father and a boss? I encompass the essence of all that I am no matter what it happens to be.
| Quote: | | The second definition just refers to something that exists and would be of no help to you. |
It needs not be of any help to me, it is a quality of the definition of 'being' - something that exists.
| Quote: | | I must ask why you have cited all of these definitions if you're not using words in these senses? |
Sir, you continue to fail to understand. I am using those words in those senses, it is you who continue to attempt parsing out meanings and qualifications.
I have stated: that God exists as a unity of three distinct 'persons': Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each 'person' is distinct from the other, yet identical in essence. In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is the totality of the trinity. One God, triune in nature, fully encompassing the distinct essences of each 'person' and fully encompassing the totality of His divinity.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| beautiful... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | In other words, each is fully divine in nature, but each is the totality of the trinity. One God, triune in nature, fully encompassing the distinct essences of each 'person' and fully encompassing the totality of His divinity |
JP, you are muddying the waters with an equivocation. How can each person of the Godhead have a distinct essence if, as you say, they all have one essence?
_________________
"Overcome anger by love. Overcome evil by good. Overcome the miser by giving. Overcome the liar by truth." |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6905
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 6:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | How can each person of the Godhead have a distinct essence if, as you say, they all have one essence? |
Ah! Now that is the question isn't it?
A question I have already answered however:
I am not able to fully understand God or His nature. I can understand that which He has revealed through scripture and the understanding of that scripture given to me through the Holy Spirit, yet we all know (if we read scritpure at all) that God's nature is not fully revealed therein and our understanding of that which has been revealed is limited by our nature.
I can explain the trinity, I can understand what it is and that it is. I am, however, insufficient - as is all of mankind, to fully understand the whole nature of God and how He is who and what He is.
I would assert that this is the main reason many men deny the truth of scripture in relation to the triune nature of God - they cannot comprehend how such a thing can be so they are driven by their nature to denounce or dismiss it.
I, on the other hand, have no ego to bruise when it concerns the omnipotent nature of God and my inability to fully comprehend the totality of that nature. Scripture tells me what it tells me and I accept that.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
