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sofyst
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Joined: 11 Dec 2006
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Location: Tejas
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 Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Not Adam. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust.
When the body dies, the soul departs leaving nothing but an empty husk of unmanagable blond hair and a pooka shell necklace....
On the other end, nothing but an empty shell until that live body breathes in it soul and becomes a human being. |
Great job Jp. SO! if on the other end nothing but an empty shell is present within the womb (until the soul is breathed in), would you call this empty shell 'Adam'?
Or would you see it as the same empty husk of unmanagable blonde hair and *CORRECTION* black leather necklace with a metal cross (I lost my pooka shell necklace, besides, pooka is so nineties...sheesh!)?
If you will not call the empty husk after death 'Adam', would you call the empty husk before life 'Adam'?
I hope you know where I'm going...
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dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
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Joined: 10 Jan 2004
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Location: Sweden (though I'm from Maryland)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: | | No not exactly, and I'll prove why. You are telling me that you were once a fetus, correct? |
Yes, I was a fetus (let's see how well I do the math here without messing up...should be fun to see)....25 years and five months ago, or whatever it would be starting from June of 1981 when I was concieved.
| Quote: | | Do you mean by this that you, the Lynn we have before us, was once a fetus, a less developed and smaller version of what we have now, but it was Lynn nonetheless within that womb. Is this what you are saying? |
Yes, what the hell would've I been if I wasn't? I was a fetus that didn't have any recollection of being in the womb (like I can imagine for most of the human population that made it to birth), any intelligence, and any characteristics. I was alive, human, and surviving off my mother for nine months.
And yes...I could've been a Ryan too if I was born a male.
| Quote: | | Or would you say it was not YOU, it was just a fetus that would become you, it did not become Lynn until birth when the soul entered the body. THEN it became you. |
Like I agreed with that one person...there are two parts to a fetus...body and spirit. I am what I am physically now that use to be in a fetal form 25 years and 5 months ago. Spiritual wise...Lynn was born the day Lynn was born. It could've been a Ryan though if I had been born a male.
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sofyst
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| dramatic_n_comedic_lynn wrote: | | sofyst wrote: | | No not exactly, and I'll prove why. You are telling me that you were once a fetus, correct? |
Yes, I was a fetus (let's see how well I do the math here without messing up...should be fun to see)....25 years and five months ago, or whatever it would be starting from June of 1981 when I was concieved.
| Quote: | | Do you mean by this that you, the Lynn we have before us, was once a fetus, a less developed and smaller version of what we have now, but it was Lynn nonetheless within that womb. Is this what you are saying? |
Yes, what the hell would've I been if I wasn't? I was a fetus that didn't have any recollection of being in the womb (like I can imagine for most of the human population that made it to birth), any intelligence, and any characteristics. I was alive, human, and surviving off my mother for nine months.
And yes...I could've been a Ryan too if I was born a male.
| Quote: | | Or would you say it was not YOU, it was just a fetus that would become you, it did not become Lynn until birth when the soul entered the body. THEN it became you. |
Like I agreed with that one person...there are two parts to a fetus...body and spirit. I am what I am physically now that use to be in a fetal form 25 years and 5 months ago. Spiritual wise...Lynn was born the day Lynn was born. It could've been a Ryan though if I had been born a male. |
So if while 'Lynn' was in the womb your mom would have decided to kill you, would the death of 'Lynn' then be the same as if I decided to kill you now?
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RevJP
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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I do know where you are going and a lingering philisophical trip it is. Unfortunately there is nothing to walk on during that trip except hopes and dreams.
I look back to Jeremiah, God knew Him from the begining of time, He knew when he would be concieved and when he would be born and what his parents would name him. Because God knows all. That does not give Jeremiah a soul anymore than my picking a baby name 13 years before the birth of my son gave him a soul.
The only difference there is that God knew, and I hoped. But if I was outside of time and saw and knew all, then I would have had the advantage of saying "Joshua Kade, I knew you before you were formed in the womb..."
Now I can only say: "I planned for you and hoped for you..."
Either way, it does not indicate, insinuate, intimate, or suggest ensoulment.
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sofyst
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | The only difference there is that God knew, and I hoped. But if I was outside of time and saw and knew all, then I would have had the advantage of saying "Joshua Kade, I knew you before you were formed in the womb..." |
AHHH! But the difference is that God did not say 'Joshua Kade, I knew you before you were formed in the womb', He said 'Joshua Kade, I knew you WHEN YOU WERE IN THE WOMB!'
BIG Difference.
You see, according to you, when I die, and before I come alive (when in the womb), there is nothing but a shell. This shell is not me. This shell does not become me until my soul enters it.
Since this shell is not me, it would be stupid of you to call it me. It would be stupid of you to look at my corpse and say 'this is Adam', and it would be stupid of you to look at the fetus within the womb and say 'this is Adam'. The reason it would be stupid is because neither of those are me, they are both just shells.
But it would be just as stupid for you to say 'Adam I knew you when you were in the coffin six feet under'. The reason that would be stupid is because I, Adam, never was in teh coffin six feet under. MY SHELL was in teh coffin six feet under, but I never was.'
See the difference, you cannot say 'I knew you when YOU WERE IN THE COFFIN' anymore than you can say 'I knew you when YOU WERE IN THE WOMB'. You cannot say either because I, Adam, never was within the womb anymore than I was in the coffin. Only my shell was. It was my shell in the womb, not I, and it was my shell in teh coffin, not I. You cannot call this shell me, and you cannot say I, Adam, was in the womb.
But that is exactly what God did, He said that it was Jeremiah in the womb, not Jeremiah's shell...
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dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: | | So if while 'Lynn' was in the womb your mom would have decided to kill you, would the death of 'Lynn' then be the same as if I decided to kill you now? |
*Sighs* No, it wouldn't be the same. Here's how...I'm born. I can feel pain. I have a personality with lovely interesting characteristics. I've been offically granted personhood the moment I took my first breath and was born. I was given a soul when I was born. If someone kills me now (especially if it's malice and intentional), it would be murder.
If I died right now, my soul would be judged and reborn into another that has been born. My spirit would go to some type of afterlife. My body would rot in the ground or get cremated.
Had I been aborted or died from spontanous abortion in my mother's womb...only the body would've died. Nothing would be reborn. Nothing would go to an afterlife.
The only comparable things that my physical self as a fetus and my physical self now with a soul have a common is that if I die, a life is lost and a body is no more. that's it. A soul isn't there when there's conception, just the body of a living fetus.
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RevJP
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | AHHH! But the difference is that God did not say 'Joshua Kade, I knew you before you were formed in the womb', He said 'Joshua Kade, I knew you WHEN YOU WERE IN THE WOMB!'
BIG Difference. |
Uh.... no 
It makes absolutely no difference. God knows everything before, after, and during, so what possible difference would it make?
| Quote: | See the difference, you cannot say 'I knew you when YOU WERE IN THE COFFIN' anymore than you can say 'I knew you when YOU WERE IN THE WOMB'. You cannot say either because I, Adam, never was within the womb anymore than I was in the coffin. Only my shell was. It was my shell in the womb, not I, and it was my shell in teh coffin, not I. You cannot call this shell me, and you cannot say I, Adam, was in the womb.
But that is exactly what God did, He said that it was Jeremiah in the womb, not Jeremiah's shell... |
So it is your position that God does not know everything. That He did not know Jeremiah until Jeremiah was conceived? How then did He know Mary would conceive and that it would be a boy?
Your logic is shaky here, and standing on a very thin wire...
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sofyst
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Lynn wrote: | | I've been offically granted personhood the moment I took my first breath and was born. I was given a soul when I was born. |
*SIGH AS WELL* So when you were a fetus, you were not a person and you had not a soul. What then was the 'you'?
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theseldomscene
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| prove it... |
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dramatic_n_comedic_lynn
Big Goldfish
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
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Location: Sweden (though I'm from Maryland)
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: | | *SIGH AS WELL* So when you were a fetus, you were not a person and you had not a soul. What then was the 'you'? |
A living and human fetus?
Just because you don't have a soul and don't have personhood doesn't mean you weren't a fetus. A fetus is still there in a womb regardless if there's a soul or not, and regardless if the woman pregnant with it sees it as a person or not.
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sofyst
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Rev wrote: | So it is your position that God does not know everything. That He did not know Jeremiah until Jeremiah was conceived? How then did He know Mary would conceive and that it would be a boy?
Your logic is shaky here, and standing on a very thin wire... |
You're frustrating me...
Let us forget about the knowledge that God possessed, and only focus on the 'when you were in the womb'. We could add anything before this, we could imagine that God said 'I was picking my nose when you were in the womb', or 'I was baking a cake when you were in the womb'. What comes before the 'when you were in the womb' is really superfluous to my argument.
Now, remember again with me the corpse/fetus idea. You agreed that if you saw my corpse that would not be me. You agreed that it was just a shell. You agreed that you would not look at it and call it 'Adam' because it was not 'Adam', it is just a shell. My spirit is gone, I am somewhere else (heaven hopefully).
So, let us imagine that I am dead and I am in heaven and my body is buried, the 'shell' is within the ground.
Let us then imagine that you were 'baking a cake'. (I always love the outrageous scenarios I present).
The question would then be which of these following statements are correct?
'Jp is baking a cake when Adam is in heaven'
or
'Jp is baking a cake when Adam is buried in the ground'
??? Which would be correct?
You have already said that it is not I within the ground, that it is just a shell. Therefore, I don't think you would say that the second would be correct.
Understand?
Again, leave God's omniscience out of this for a little bit...focus just on cakes and corpses. 
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theseldomscene
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:08 pm Post subject: |
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now i am hungry  ... |
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sofyst
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| dramatic_n_comedic_lynn wrote: | | sofyst wrote: | | *SIGH AS WELL* So when you were a fetus, you were not a person and you had not a soul. What then was the 'you'? |
A living and human fetus?
Just because you don't have a soul and don't have personhood doesn't mean you weren't a fetus. A fetus is still there in a womb regardless if there's a soul or not, and regardless if the woman pregnant with it sees it as a person or not. |
No one is debating that it is not a fetus. That is agreed upon by all. The question is whether it is a person or not. If not a person, then abort away. If a person, let it be born. Do you agree?
One moment though, do you think abortion is permissable or wrong?
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RevJP
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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I understand what you are saying Adam, I just think it is an irrelevant qualification.
I think you are imparting much more importance upon God knowing Fred while He was 'in the womb' than is supported by scripture.
What you are presenting is a perspective based on culture and human nature and not on any supportable or reliable evidence. Our nature is to hope that those who pass are in a better place, thus our cultural tendancy is to view the body in the grave as not being the PERSON any longer. Just as it is our nature to view the impending birth of a child with hope and joy, thus we personalize that which is not yet born. We speak to the bellies of expecting mothers, name the things before they are born and buy tons of stuff for that which in reality may not ever come to pass - all out of a sense of hope.
So your argument is holding as its supporting pillars our natural distaste for death and hope for birth.
Ultimately it makes for an interesting philisophical debate but has no support other than one's thoughts.
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sofyst
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| Posted: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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Rev, I really do not think you are understanding what I am saying. The Scripture is clear that it was Jeremiah in the womb ('when you were in the womb'). You seem to still maintain that it was only Jeremiah's shell within the womb, a pre-soul shell. I am simply reading 'when you were in the womb', as directed to Jeremiah, as meaning that it was Jeremiah in the womb. If it was not Jeremiah in the womb (it was only a shall), I don't think God would have said 'when you were in the womb'.
I don't know how much simpler it can get...I really don't understand why you cannot grasp it.
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