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RevJP
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 Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
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I'm not getting your point? Is a name dependent upon a soul? Can God only 'know' souls?
Clear it up for those of us who are intellectually challenged.
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sofyst
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 8:53 am Post subject: |
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Jeremiah was born at a specific time, no one doubts this. You are claiming that at this birth, Jeremiah was imparted with a soul, making him a living being, different than the animals, a human (a full human, containing all parts of humanity).
However, God 'knew' something within the womb of Jeremiah's mother. God 'knew' this soulless 'fetus', and gave it a purpose.
God later told Jeremiah that this 'soulless fetus' within the womb was in fact Jeremiah.
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RevJP
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:01 am Post subject: |
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yeah.
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P1234567890
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: | But consider the situation. God tells Jeremiah that He, God, knew Jeremiah before He was born.
Now, if your opinion is correct, and the soul is not imparted until birth,
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Let's be clear on this. I am not saying that the soul is imparted at birth. This is too strong a statement. What I am saying (and if I may be so bold as to put words in RevJP's mouth, what he is also saying) is that maybe the soul is imparted at conception, and maybe it's imparted at birth, and maybe it's imparted at some point in between, but the Bible does not tell us when this happens. That's all we're saying.
| sofyst wrote: |
then this would mean the person/thing/being that God knew before Jeremiah's birth was a soulless being, and yet it was still classified, or called by God, 'Jeremiah'. |
But God is omniscient and He exists outside of time. He is not constrained by it the same way we are. So of course He knew Jeremiah before He was born. He knew Jeremiah ten billion years ago.
Plus there's the whole problem with Adam's ensoulment happening with the first breath.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:08 am Post subject: |
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I'm not sure I see the problem, sofyst. God knows everything, God is beyond time, God knows whether or not you'll have great-great-great grandchildren and if they will exist, he already knows them too.
On a related note, since God is omniscient and God gives out the souls, I think that it's reasonable to suppose that God already knows when developing babies will be aborted and thus does not waste souls on those ones. If this is the case, then it doesn't matter when ensoulment happens.
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RevJP
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | (and if I may be so bold as to put words in RevJP's mouth, what he is also saying) |
Too bold.
I am saying, that for lack of scripture stating or indicating clearly otherwise, the only reference we have for the ensoulment of man, is first breath. That happens at birth. So, from my point of view, barring substantial and convincing biblical references, ensoulment happens at birth.
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P1234567890
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | (and if I may be so bold as to put words in RevJP's mouth, what he is also saying) |
Too bold.
I am saying, that for lack of scripture stating or indicating clearly otherwise, the only reference we have for the ensoulment of man, is first breath. That happens at birth. So, from my point of view, barring substantial and convincing biblical references, ensoulment happens at birth. |
I guess you're saying something even stronger than I am saying!
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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sofyst
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:19 pm Post subject: |
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| P123 wrote: | | Let's be clear on this. I am not saying that the soul is imparted at birth. This is too strong a statement. What I am saying (and if I may be so bold as to put words in RevJP's mouth, what he is also saying) is that maybe the soul is imparted at conception, and maybe it's imparted at birth, and maybe it's imparted at some point in between, but the Bible does not tell us when this happens. That's all we're saying. |
I'm saying that I think it does tell us when the soul is imparted, or at least gives us a clue. God said He knew Jeremiah within the womb. I think this can be interpreted as God knowing the person of Jeremiah (soul and all) within the womb. Which would mean that when God knew him within the womb, at the time of His 'knowing', Jeremiah had a soul.
I think that if God would have said, I knew your pre-soul body within the womb, the idea would be consistent with the opinion that the soul is given at birth. I don't even think that these words were necessary. But if the soul had not yet been given to the body, within the womb, then the thing which God 'knew' would not be Jeremiah, it would be a soulless body. It would be mere flesh and blood, as if some organ.
| Quote: | | But God is omniscient and He exists outside of time. He is not constrained by it the same way we are. So of course He knew Jeremiah before He was born. He knew Jeremiah ten billion years ago. |
But understand the difference. God can say, 'I knew sofyst from the foundation of the world', or 'I knew sofyst when I was talking to Abraham', or 'I knew sofyst before he was born'. That is consistent with the thought that God is omniscient and outside of time and not constrained by time.
But the words 'I knew sofyst when he was in the womb' is different. It places my existence into the whole fray. The previous statements did not consist of my existence, only of God's knowledge. The statement of 'I knew you within the womb' speaks not only of God's knowledge, but likewise of where I was when God knew this (namely within the womb).
| Quote: | | Plus there's the whole problem with Adam's ensoulment happening with the first breath. |
I find it shaky ground to judge based upon Adam's ensoulment. Adam was a peculiar case, as I think we would all agree.
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sofyst
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | I'm not sure I see the problem, sofyst. God knows everything, God is beyond time, God knows whether or not you'll have great-great-great grandchildren and if they will exist, he already knows them too.
On a related note, since God is omniscient and God gives out the souls, I think that it's reasonable to suppose that God already knows when developing babies will be aborted and thus does not waste souls on those ones. If this is the case, then it doesn't matter when ensoulment happens. |
My response to you would be the same as to P123. It is not an issue only of God's omniscience, but it involves where I was when this omniscience was had as well...
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RevJP
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'm saying that I think it does tell us when the soul is imparted, or at least gives us a clue. God said He knew Jeremiah within the womb. I think this can be interpreted as God knowing the person of Jeremiah (soul and all) within the womb. Which would mean that when God knew him within the womb, at the time of His 'knowing', Jeremiah had a soul. |
I think you are making major assumptions which are not supported by scripture.
Following your line of thinking everyone that ever existed must have had a soul before God ever created anything, because He KNEW us at that time.
Is this really what you are suggesting?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: |
But the words 'I knew sofyst when he was in the womb' is different. It places my existence into the whole fray. The previous statements did not consist of my existence, only of God's knowledge. The statement of 'I knew you within the womb' speaks not only of God's knowledge, but likewise of where I was when God knew this (namely within the womb).
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Maybe it's just pointing out that God was really powerful and knew Jeremiah even before his own mother did. I don't see any talk of ensoulment in your quote. Where does it say that Jeremiah had a soul when he was a fetus?
| sofyst wrote: |
| Quote: | | Plus there's the whole problem with Adam's ensoulment happening with the first breath. |
I find it shaky ground to judge based upon Adam's ensoulment. Adam was a peculiar case, as I think we would all agree. |
So was Jeremiah...
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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sofyst
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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No, that is not what I am saying. As I understand God possesses knowledge of people, and knows people when they are not in existence.
Let me present it like this. Let us consider two statements by God.
I knew you, Adam, when you were sitting in the Library.
and,
I knew you, Adam, when I was creating the world.
Both of these statements give us a piece of God's knowledge (namely me, Adam). And both of these statements tell where I was during this knowledge. The first tells that when God knew me, I was sitting in the library, therefore my location was in the library. The second tells that when God knew me, I was not yet born, therefore my location was prior to my birth.
But the very idea of giving my location, 'within the library' gives implication that I, Adam, was alive to be sitting in the library. If I was dead at this time or not yet alive, then God's statement of 'I knew you when you were sitting in the library' would be fallacious as I was not in existence to sit in the library, even if God said that this was the time He knew me.
Understand the parallel.
God says,
'Jeremiah, I knew you when you were in the womb'.
This tells us what God knew (Jeremiah) and it tells the time that He knew it (when Jeremiah was in the womb). It likewise tells us the location of Jeremiah at this time (he was within the womb).
Therefore, if we concluded, as you seem to have, that Jeremiah, the person of Jeremiah (the one with a soul) was not yet in existence at the time he was in the womb, then God could not have said 'I knew you when YOU were in the womb'. He would have had to say 'I knew you when your body was in the womb', or 'I knew you when that mound of flesh that you would soon inhabit was in the womb'.
Understand?
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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I can think of a bunch of things that this passage might be trying to say. When it says that God knew Jeremiah in the womb, it might be saying:
1. God is all-loving and he watches over people. He even watches over the vessel that will hold your soul before ensoulment.
2. God watched you develop as a fetus; He's been with you since the very beginning of the process that created you.
3. God knows you better than your own mother and father. He is like a father to you.
4. God is omniscient and knows everything. He even knows about people before they've been born.
Or, maybe the passage is really just specific to Jeremiah.
There are plenty of reasonable interpretations of this verse which have nothing to do with fetuses having souls.
And besides, EVEN IF it says that fetuses have souls, it never says how developed the fetus is. Maybe it's referring to Jeremiah one day before birth. Maybe it's referring to Jeremiah in the last trimester. There is NOTHING in the Bible to suggest otherwise.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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sofyst
Tiger
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Posts: 830
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Or, maybe the passage is really just specific to Jeremiah. |
Perhaps, just as the passage in Genesis may be specific to only Adam. But I don't think we can discredit Jeremiah as much, as we can Adam, given the strange creation of Adam (strange in that it has never and will never happen as such again).
| Quote: | | And besides, EVEN IF it says that fetuses have souls, it never says how developed the fetus is. Maybe it's referring to Jeremiah one day before birth. Maybe it's referring to Jeremiah in the last trimester. There is NOTHING in the Bible to suggest otherwise. |
Agreed again, however, if this did say that Jeremiah, the fetus Jeremiah, the not-yet-birthed Jeremiah had a soul, then this would discredit the idea that soul giving happens at birth.
I don't think this passage is THAT hard to interpret. It is quite easily broken down and the implications are drawn quite unequivocally.
God says, 'Jeremiah, I knew you (this speaks of God's knowledge, He knew the person of Jeremiah, just as I know the person of RevJP) when you were in the womb (this speaks about Jeremiah's location at the time of God's knowledge - Jeremiah, the same person that God was speaking to then, was within the womb.)
I really think you two are attempting to do somersaults to avoid the obvious. The passage says quite specifically that it was Jeremiah within the womb, not Jeremiah's body.
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: | | Quote: | | Or, maybe the passage is really just specific to Jeremiah. |
Perhaps, just as the passage in Genesis may be specific to only Adam. But I don't think we can discredit Jeremiah as much, as we can Adam, given the strange creation of Adam (strange in that it has never and will never happen as such again).
| Quote: | | And besides, EVEN IF it says that fetuses have souls, it never says how developed the fetus is. Maybe it's referring to Jeremiah one day before birth. Maybe it's referring to Jeremiah in the last trimester. There is NOTHING in the Bible to suggest otherwise. |
Agreed again, however, if this did say that Jeremiah, the fetus Jeremiah, the not-yet-birthed Jeremiah had a soul, then this would discredit the idea that soul giving happens at birth.
I don't think this passage is THAT hard to interpret. It is quite easily broken down and the implications are drawn quite unequivocally.
God says, 'Jeremiah, I knew you (this speaks of God's knowledge, He knew the person of Jeremiah, just as I know the person of RevJP) when you were in the womb (this speaks about Jeremiah's location at the time of God's knowledge - Jeremiah, the same person that God was speaking to then, was within the womb.)
I really think you two are attempting to do somersaults to avoid the obvious. The passage says quite specifically that it was Jeremiah within the womb, not Jeremiah's body. |
You're making some big assumptions here. Maybe what it really means is "Jeremiah, I knew that you would become the way you are right now when you were already in your mother's womb."
The entire verse could be about how God can see the future.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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