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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:24 am Post subject: |
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so then men have nipples because it's already pre-programmed or determined into both the X and Y chromosones?
Maybe so that whichever way it turns out the parent can nourish it's children?
Maybe the single X or Y doesn't "know" what it's end result will be after it combines with other X's and Y's, so it's like a safety net in either way?
was it nipples or bellybuttons in the OP?
HA..
God Bless
Lone
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | so then men have nipples because it's already pre-programmed or determined into both the X and Y chromosones?
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I doubt it. I would guess that it has to be exclusively in the X chromosome. If it required the Y, then women wouldn't have nipples...
I could be wrong (biology works in strange ways), but I know a little about genetics and genes, and that's my best guess without actually going to look it up.
| lone-traveler wrote: |
Maybe so that whichever way it turns out the parent can nourish it's children?
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But men don't produce female hormones in the quantities necessary to induce lactation...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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Why have male nipples not dissapeared?
There seems to be a logical explanation about why women have nipples - for babies. But why do men's bodies retain what appears to be redundant body parts? The Darwinian natural selection process would seem to dictate that male nipples really should not be there. So what's the deal? Why do men have nipples?
The answer is that as embryos men and women have similar tissues and body parts. If anything the embryo follows a 'female template'. That is why nipples are present in both sexes. It is the effect of the genes, the Y chromosome and the hormone testosterone that brings about the changes and masculinises the embryo. Testosterone promotes the growth of the penis and *Hairy Human Bowling Balls*. Because nipples are there before this process begins the nipples stay!
Nipples and breast tissue have no function as such except for perhaps protecting the heart and lungs from injury.
Male Breasts Can Produce Milk and Get Breast Cancer
A certain level of the female hormone estrogen is present in all men.
If, as a result of disease or a condition affecting hormones, breast tissue in men can grow (gynecomastia- abnormal enlargement of breasts,) and men can produce milk.
Gynacomastia is more commonly seen in adolescence, a period in development when hormones fluctuate a lot. It is also seen in some men with liver disease and sometimes in alcoholics.
Men can get breast cancer as well as women.
http://menshealth.about.com/od/conditions/a/Nipples_Men.htm
pretty cool huh?... 
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: |
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Hairy Human Bowling Balls...  
Now thats FUNNY!!! LOLOL...
ROFL..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: |
pretty cool huh?... |
'Cool' might not be the first word that comes to mind when I think of men's breasts producing milk... 
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Why have male nipples not dissapeared?
There seems to be a logical explanation about why women have nipples - for babies. But why do men's bodies retain what appears to be redundant body parts? The Darwinian natural selection process would seem to dictate that male nipples really should not be there. So what's the deal? Why do men have nipples?
The answer is that as embryos men and women have similar tissues and body parts. If anything the embryo follows a 'female template'. That is why nipples are present in both sexes. It is the effect of the genes, the Y chromosome and the hormone testosterone that brings about the changes and masculinises the embryo. Testosterone promotes the growth of the penis and *Hairy Human Bowling Balls*. Because nipples are there before this process begins the nipples stay!
Nipples and breast tissue have no function as such except for perhaps protecting the heart and lungs from injury.
Male Breasts Can Produce Milk and Get Breast Cancer
A certain level of the female hormone estrogen is present in all men.
If, as a result of disease or a condition affecting hormones, breast tissue in men can grow (gynecomastia- abnormal enlargement of breasts,) and men can produce milk.
Gynacomastia is more commonly seen in adolescence, a period in development when hormones fluctuate a lot. It is also seen in some men with liver disease and sometimes in alcoholics.
Men can get breast cancer as well as women.
http://menshealth.about.com/od/conditions/a/Nipples_Men.htm
pretty cool huh?... |
You know Lone, I saw a National Geographic show that answered this very question, Why do Men have Nipples?, by essentially saying the exact same thing you just mentioned. The documentary mentioned that there is a certain enzyme that "switches" the X or Y chromosome on or off at a particular point in the embriotic development at which point high levels of testosterone are developed for the male child.
I've also seen other articles that mentioned this, but it's been awhile since I read them and then just searching I found this article that mentions this "switching. "SRY (for sex-determining region Y) is a gene located on the short (p) arm just outside the pseudoautosomal region. :It is the master switch that triggers the events that converts the embryo into a male."
Thanks again Lone for finding that.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| RND wrote: | there is a certain enzyme that "switches" the X or Y chromosome on or off at a particular point in the embriotic development at which point high levels of testosterone are developed for the male child.
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Sorry to be so nit-picky with you, but chromosomes do not get switched on or off... Genes do. The X chromosome contains a WHOLE lot more than just gender genes.
Yes, exactly; genes get switched on and off; not chromosomes.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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RND wrote:
| Quote: | | there is a certain enzyme that "switches" the X or Y chromosome on or off at a particular point in the embriotic development at which point high levels of testosterone are developed for the male child. |
P123 wrote:
| Quote: | | Sorry to be so nit-picky with you, but chromosomes do not get switched on or off... Genes do. The X chromosome contains a WHOLE lot more than just gender genes. |
Lone quoted:
| Quote: | | It is the effect of the genes, the Y chromosome and the hormone testosterone that brings about the changes and masculinises the embryo. |
Meiosis
The Problem
Mitosis produces two cells with the same number of chromosomes as the parent cell. Mitosis of a diploid cell (2n) produces two diploid daughter cells. If two diploid cells went on to participate in sexual reproduction, their fusion would produce a tetraploid (4n) zygote.
The Solution: Meiosis
Meiosis is a process of cell division in eukaryotes characterized by:
two consecutive divisions: meiosis I and meiosis II
no DNA synthesis (no S phase) between the two divisions
the result: 4 cells with half the number of chromosomes of the starting cell, e.g., 2n → n
Fusion of two such cells produces a 2n zygote.
Meiosis in Animals
Used to produced the gametes: sperm and eggs
Meiosis in Plants
Used to produce spores. Spores are the start of the gametophyte generation which, in time, will produce gametes (by mitosis because the starting cells are already haploid).
Meiosis I
Prophase of meiosis I (prophase I) is a more elaborate process than prophase of mitosis (and usually takes much longer).
Here is a brief overview of the process. A more detailed view is provided below.
When the chromosomes first become visible they are already doubled, each homologue having been duplicated during the preceding S phase.
Result: pairs of homologous dyads each dyad consisting of two sister chromatids held together by proteins called cohesins.
Pairing: Each pair of homologous dyads align lengthwise with each other.
Result: a tetrad. (These structures are sometimes referred to as bivalents because at this stage you cannot distinguish the individual sister chromatids under the microscope.)
The two homologous dyads are held together by
one or more chiasmata (sing. = chiasma) which form between two nonsister chromatids at points where they have crossed over.
the synaptonemal complex (SC), a complex assembly of proteins (including cohesins)
At metaphase I, microtubules of the spindle fibers attach to the sister kinetochores of one homologue, pulling both sister chromatids toward one pole of the cell; sister kinetochores of the other homologue pulling those sisters toward the opposite pole.
Result: one homologue is pulled above the metaphase plate, the other below. The chiasmata keep the homologues attached to each other, and the cohesins keep the sister chromatids together.
At anaphase I,
the cohesins between the chromosome arms break down allowing
the chiasmata to slip apart.
Result: the homologous dyads separate and migrate toward their respective poles.
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/M/Meiosis.html
so what then? Is it proteins called cohesins that actually do the twisting and forming? Is it when these proteins break down between the chromosones that the arms break down?
http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyPages/S/SexChromosomes.html
SRY
SRY (for sex-determining region Y) is a gene located on the short (p) arm just outside the pseudoautosomal region. It is the master switch that triggers the events that converts the embryo into a male. Without this gene, you get a female instead. It appears, then, the femaleness is the "default" program.
What is the evidence?
On very rare occasions aneuploid humans are born with such karyotypes as XXY, XXXY, and even XXXXY. Despite their extra X chromosomes, all these cases are male.
This image (courtesy of Robin Lovell-Badge from Nature 351:117, 1991) shows two mice with an XX karyotype (and thus they should be female). However, as you may be able to see, they have a male phenotype. This is because they are transgenic for SRY. Fertilized XX eggs were injected with DNA carrying the SRY gene. see Making Transgenic Animals
Although these mice have t.estes, male sex hormones, and normal mating behavior, they are sterile.
Another rarity: XX humans with t.esticular tissue because a translocation has placed the SRY gene on one of the X chromosomes
Still another rarity that demonstrates the case: women with an XY karyotype who, despite their Y chromosome, are female because of a destructive mutation in SRY.
(A test based on a molecular probe for SRY was used to ensure that potential competitors for the women's Olympic events in Atlanta had no SRY gene.)
I think it's getting too technical for me...LOL..
Because of a destructive mutation in the SRY gene which attaches itself to the X chromosones, Males can become females and vice versa...? or translocation of this gene along the X chromosone?
it's way over my head..you guys carry on have fun..
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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Wow Lone, are you starting up a science class in here?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: |
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the scary part is, I actually understood some of it...
I think, as long as you learn the basics...the alphabet and the number system...there isn't anything you can't learn if you put your mind to it.
I enjoy science...not so much the biology science as astronomy science. I could get lost in the stars forever..
cooking too, now there's a science if I ever saw one..  weights and measures and temperatures, time, do we stir, fold or whip or toss...LOL...
broil, boil, fry, steam, bake, grill, simmer, stew...LOL
ecology, economy, music, agriculture, horticulture, medicine...it's endless..
And it all begins with abc, 123...isn't that amazing..
P123 wrote:
| Quote: | | Wow Lone, are you starting up a science class in here? |
Nah, I'm just a student. It's more fun to learn..
Have an awesome day!
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: |
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No, I think Lone is just quoting directly from the web site I linked to. Good one Lone!
Funny thing is, the woman's egg contains XX chromosomes and men's sperm contains XY chromosomes. Yet the new embryo turns out to be either XX or XY.
I wonder when this takes place.
In other words, since men's sperm don't come as just X or just as Y, at that exact moment the egg is fertilzed, sex is still not yet determined.
As this paper clearly demonstrates there is a process within the new cell division, called a zygoye, where by XX or XY chromosomes from the parents are joined together to create either an XX or XY offspring.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| RND wrote: |
Funny thing is, the woman's egg contains XX chromosomes and men's sperm contains XY chromosomes. Yet the new embryo turns out to be either XX or XY.
I wonder when this takes place.
In other words, since men's sperm don't come as just X or just as Y, at that exact moment the egg is fertilzed, sex is still not yet determined. |
This is wrong. In the vast majority of cases, each egg contains one X chromosome, and each sperm contains either one X or one Y. Gender is completely determined by that.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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I just read this again..sometimes it takes a hundred times before I "get it"..LOL...
The answer is that as embryos men and women have similar tissues and body parts. If anything the embryo follows a 'female template'. That is why nipples are present in both sexes.
It is the effect of the genes, the Y chromosome and the hormone testosterone that brings about the changes and masculinises the embryo.
it's this part here ready?
Because nipples are there before this process begins the nipples stay!
Trying hard to stay on topic..LOL..why do men have nipples?...it's in the information contained in tissues and body parts before the masculising process takes place...OH...
before the SRY attach to the X chromosones.
check this out..so cool!!!
1Cr 11:12 For as the woman [is] of the man, even so [is] the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
The answer is that as embryos men and women have similar tissues and body parts. If anything the embryo follows a 'female template'.
tell me science isn't in the bible..LOL...
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | RND wrote: |
Funny thing is, the woman's egg contains XX chromosomes and men's sperm contains XY chromosomes. Yet the new embryo turns out to be either XX or XY.
I wonder when this takes place.
In other words, since men's sperm don't come as just X or just as Y, at that exact moment the egg is fertilzed, sex is still not yet determined. |
This is wrong. In the vast majority of cases, each egg contains one X chromosome, and each sperm contains either one X or one Y. Gender is completely determined by that. |
Uh, huh.
XX Chromosomes
Sex-determination system
The XX/XY sex-determination system is one of the most familiar sex-determination systems and is found in human beings and most other mammals. In the XY sex-determination system, females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), while males have two distinct sex chromosomes (XY). Some species (including humans) have a gene SRY on the Y chromosome that determines maleness; others (such as the fruit fly) use the presence of two X chromosomes to determine femaleness.
"This is wrong."
No, not according to Wikipedia it isn't.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:33 pm Post subject: |
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| RND wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | RND wrote: |
Funny thing is, the woman's egg contains XX chromosomes and men's sperm contains XY chromosomes. Yet the new embryo turns out to be either XX or XY.
I wonder when this takes place.
In other words, since men's sperm don't come as just X or just as Y, at that exact moment the egg is fertilzed, sex is still not yet determined. |
This is wrong. In the vast majority of cases, each egg contains one X chromosome, and each sperm contains either one X or one Y. Gender is completely determined by that. |
Uh, huh.
XX Chromosomes
Sex-determination system
The XX/XY sex-determination system is one of the most familiar sex-determination systems and is found in human beings and most other mammals. In the XY sex-determination system, females have two of the same kind of sex chromosome (XX), while males have two distinct sex chromosomes (XY). Some species (including humans) have a gene SRY on the Y chromosome that determines maleness; others (such as the fruit fly) use the presence of two X chromosomes to determine femaleness.
"This is wrong."
No, not according to Wikipedia it isn't. |
You're reading it wrong; you said that eggs have two of these chromosomes (XX) and sperm have two of these chromosomes also (XY), which is FALSE. Eggs have one X each (that's it) and sperm have either one X OR one Y.
Your link is not talking about eggs and sperm; it's talking about males and females.
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Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
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