 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:10 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| RevJP wrote: | | I hope this thread becomes civil again and the personal insults cease (RND), I would rather not lock it, but I will. |
Then if that's the case shut it down. JP, you are just as rude and asserbic to other's as you claim I am being. Many of your posts contain rude and offensive comments towards other's that disagree with you Biblically, politically and philosophically.
Whether you are a moderator or not it needs to be said that you need to take a look in the mirror.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:53 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RND wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | Did you or did you not write the following?
| RND wrote: |
There comes a time in the life of the embryo, I believe shortly after it's development, that an enzyme kicks in and triggers the change by completing the XX or XY connection.
|
Is this statement of your true or is it false? |
I did indeed make that statement. I also made made a statement that corrected what was an obvious mistake in grammar on my part. Interesting how you failed to note this:
| RND wrote: | However, I don't think the word split is truly accurate. Each X or Y chromosome carried by the male has a different enzyme used to 'knock down' the wall of the womans egg. This, coupled with the fact that the X chromosome carries the necessary gene for testicular development and the theory of pre-zygotic gender determination, which is thought to have a direct impact on the sex of the child complete the process of gender determination.
www.biolreprod.org/cgi/content/full/63/3/667/b |
| Quote: | | You said that gender is determined AFTER embryonic development. This is objectively false, and I was completely right when I corrected you. |
I corrected myself and you have purposely failed to notice this. Your being deceptive.
|
You are wrong. You made at least two mistakes. The first was the mistake about 'splitting', which you DID concede to, but we then had the following exchange:
| RND wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Fine, just as long as you don't think that an X chromosome can split and turn into a Y chromosome or vice-versa. |
No I do not and if I gave that impression, my apologies. There comes a time in the life of the embryo, I believe shortly after it's development, that an enzyme kicks in and triggers the change by completing the XX or XY connection.
|
It is this SECOND mistake that we are now talking about. I have bolded the part of your quote which is objectively wrong. I pointed out that it is wrong, and you have yet to concede to that point. You still seem to think that human gender is determined AFTER an embryo's development. It is not.
So no, you haven't really corrected yourself.
I've been very clear in my communications to you. I clearly explained where you were making your mistake. But still you went and insulted me and now you're throwing in accusations of attempted deception and dishonesty on my part to boot!
Are you sure that you are really RND? Have you been posting on this forum under a different name? Because you remind me A LOT of someone else...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RND wrote: |
Then if that's the case shut it down. JP, you are just as rude and asserbic to other's as you claim I am being. Many of your posts contain rude and offensive comments towards other's that disagree with you Biblically, politically and philosophically.
Whether you are a moderator or not it needs to be said that you need to take a look in the mirror. |
Don't try to shift the blame onto RevJP. He's got nothing to do with any of this. To my knowledge, he has never done what you did in this thread, namely stating something that is objectively and factually false, and then insulting the person who corrects you...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | You are wrong. You made at least two mistakes. The first was the mistake about 'splitting', which you DID concede to, but we then had the following exchange: |
No I'm not and you can go back in the record of this entire thread and see that my correction comments were in regards to only one mis-statement. You attempt to label it differently shows the level of deceitfulness you will stoop to.
| Quote: | It is this SECOND mistake that we are now talking about. I have bolded the part of your quote which is objectively wrong. I pointed out that it is wrong, and you have yet to concede to that point. You still seem to think that human gender is determined AFTER an embryo's development. It is not.
So no, you haven't really corrected yourself. |
Yes I have. You are just unwilling, or incapable, of understanding my comments were in regards to only one mis-statement.
| Quote: | | I've been very clear in my communications to you. I clearly explained where you were making your mistake. But still you went and insulted me and now you're throwing in accusations of attempted deception and dishonesty on my part to boot! |
Your delusional! 
Clearly you can see how you took my comments out of context and cut and pasted them to suit your failed understanding of my correction.
| Quote: | | Are you sure that you are really RND? Have you been posting on this forum under a different name? Because you remind me A LOT of someone else... |
I could say the same about you.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Don't try to shift the blame onto RevJP. He's got nothing to do with any of this. |
My comments were directed to him and not you and it was a general statement regarding his entire posting style.
| Quote: | | To my knowledge, he has never done what you did in this thread, namely stating something that is objectively and factually false, and then insulting the person who corrects you... |
I insulted you regarding separate insults you made towards me unrelated to my original mis-statement. Why not go back and re-read the post and you'll see that. This exchange has nothing to do with that point I made, it has everything to do however with your arogant and "Mr. know-it-all" attitude that is generally incorrect and conceited.
Your false and dangerous understanding of the way things work in the world is what's at the heart of these exchanges, and your failure to admit to you mis-statements and mistakes is just as evident in your non-sensical comments.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:17 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RND wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | You are wrong. You made at least two mistakes. The first was the mistake about 'splitting', which you DID concede to, but we then had the following exchange: |
No I'm not and you can go back in the record of this entire thread and see that my correction comments were in regards to only one mis-statement. You attempt to label it differently shows the level of deceitfulness you will stoop to.
|
I'm not mislabeling anything. You made two mistakes. The first mistake was about the 'splitting' of chromosomes. You corrected this mistake. No problem.
Then you went and made another mistake, saying that gender is determined after embryonic development. It is this mistake that I've been talking about for the last ten posts or so, but you're trying to argue that you corrected your mistake. You didn't, and this is all a big smokescreen and diversion on your part.
I am only concerned with ONE of the mistakes you made. You said that gender is determined after embryonic development. I corrected this statement of yours, and you never conceded. Instead you started insulting me when I (quite rightly) said,
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Ok; it just sounded to me like you were disputing it.
|
| RND wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
So no, you haven't really corrected yourself. |
Yes I have. You are just unwilling, or incapable, of understanding my comments were in regards to only one mis-statement.
|
I am fully aware that you've corrected only one of your misstatements. Would you like to correct the other one as well?
You said that gender is determined after embryonic development. Do you know how many cells a human fetus has after embryonic development? You think that their genders are only assigned AFTER embryonic development?
You're wrong, and I was right to correct you. This means that you were then wrong to insult me.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | I'm not mislabeling anything. You made two mistakes. The first mistake was about the 'splitting' of chromosomes. You corrected this mistake. No problem. |
Yes you are.
| Quote: | | Then you went and made another mistake, saying that gender is determined after embryonic development. It is this mistake that I've been talking about for the last ten posts or so, but you're trying to argue that you corrected your mistake. You didn't, and this is all a big smokescreen and diversion on your part. |
The comments were related.
| Quote: |
I am only concerned with ONE of the mistakes you made. You said that gender is determined after embryonic development. I corrected this statement of yours, and you never conceded. Instead you started insulting me when I (quite rightly) said, |
And this comment was related to the other.
| Quote: | | I am fully aware that you've corrected only one of your misstatements. Would you like to correct the other one as well? |
Done that already.
| Quote: | | You said that gender is determined after embryonic development. Do you know how many cells a human fetus has after embryonic development? You think that their genders are only assigned AFTER embryonic development? |
With respect to my first comment, which was related to the second the correction stands for both.
I clearly said I had no dispute with what you
had mentioned in this post:
http://bible-discussion.com/message-board-forum/viewtopic.php?p=81834#81834
It is at this point where the conversation had turn to discussing what other scientis where evaluating with respect to other physoilogical factors in embryonic cell development before impregnating by the sperm.
This whole time you've been arguing about something completely different from what I have been talking about.
This, you completely missed.
| Quote: | | You're wrong, and I was right to correct you. This means that you were then wrong to insult me. |
I never insulted you because you've been arguing about something completely different from what I have been referring to.
You missed it, just admit it.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you're still trying to win this debate, then I'm surprised that you're quoting the record. It completely supports my claims and shows that your argument is wrong.
Let's cut to the chase...
Is it true or false that gender is determined AFTER embryonic development?
If you answer true, then you're wrong. And if you answer false, then it means that you were wrong previously when you said it was true.
And where did you ever correct your mistake about this???
Even now, do you realize that you were wrong when you made the claim that gender is determined after the embryo stage???
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:42 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RND wrote: |
With respect to my first comment, which was related to the second the correction stands for both.
|
NO IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT!
I said this:
| P1234567890 wrote: |
So why were you talking about enzymes and the 'splitting' of chromosomes? |
Then you said this:
| RND wrote: |
A female has only XX chromosomes and a male only has XY chromosomes. Yet the new creation, the baby, will only need an X from the mother, but either a X or a Y from the father.
However, I don't think the word split is truly accurate. Each X or Y chromosome carried by the male has a different enzyme used to 'knock down' the wall of the womans egg. This, coupled with the fact that the X chromosome carries the necessary gene for testicular development and the theory of pre-zygotic gender determination, which is thought to have a direct impact on the sex of the child complete the process of gender determination.
|
So far, so good... Then I said this:
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Fine, just as long as you don't think that an X chromosome can split and turn into a Y chromosome or vice-versa.
|
To which you replied,
| RND wrote: |
No I do not and if I gave that impression, my apologies.
|
So far, so good. In fact, I would even go so far to say that you were being gracious, polite, and civil at this point. But then you said something objectively false, which is the root of our entire present discussion. You said,
| RND wrote: |
There comes a time in the life of the embryo, I believe shortly after it's development, that an enzyme kicks in and triggers the change by completing the XX or XY connection.
|
And this is objectively false. You said this AFTER having admitted your first mistake. This is COMPLETELY separate from your first mistake. Your first mistake was about chromosomal splitting. This mistake is about gender assignment after embryonic development.
Your admission to having made the first mistake doesn't give you immunity from all future mistakes!
Your statement about gender being assigned after embryonic development was false. Do you agree that it was false?
And do you HONESTLY think that the admission to your first mistake (which was made PRIOR to your second mistake) absolves it as well?!?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | Is it true or false that gender is determined AFTER embryonic development?
If you answer true, then you're wrong. And if you answer false, then it means that you were wrong previously when you said it was true.
And where did you ever correct your mistake about this??? |
Asked and answered:
| Quote: |
P1234567890 wrote:
Fine, just as long as you don't think that an X chromosome can split and turn into a Y chromosome or vice-versa. |
| Quote: | No I do not and if I gave that impression, my apologies. There comes a time in the life of the embryo, I believe shortly after it's development, that an enzyme kicks in and triggers the change by completing the XX or XY connection.
I believe that was explained better on NGC during their series on the womb. |
| Quote: | P1234567890 wrote:
RND wrote:
P1234567890 wrote:
You were once a single cell. And when you were that single cell, your gender was already determined.
It appears certain 'scientist's' are re-examining the position as to what factors are involved in gender determination. I understand that in the position that there may be other physical interactions that determine which chromosome enters into the egg.
Listen, every diploid cell has a gender. When you were just one cell, your gender was already completely determined.
I don't think this is in dispute. |
| Quote: | | Even now, do you realize that you were wrong when you made the claim that gender is determined after the embryo stage??? |
Asked and answered.
Now, will you please re-read the entire post and point out where I began talking about that which what I meant to say all along. Namely, that scientists are looking at other physiological factors prior to fertilization that may determine gender by selecting out certain sperm and the chance of of those sperm impregnating the egg?
I've been on this plane for a while, while you were still stuck on proving I did or didn't say something I clearly already stated.
It is for this reason that you got a tongue lashing from me....or out od sync, missing a beat, lost on cloud nine, you got you head on backwards....
I was moving forward while you were still stuck in the past.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | And this is objectively false. You said this AFTER having admitted your first mistake. This is COMPLETELY separate from your first mistake. Your first mistake was about chromosomal splitting. This mistake is about gender assignment after embryonic development.
Your admission to having made the first mistake doesn't give you immunity from all future mistakes!
Your statement about gender being assigned after embryonic development was false. Do you agree that it was false?
And do you HONESTLY think that the admission to your first mistake (which was made PRIOR to your second mistake) absolves it as well?!? |
Then this exchange took place:
| Quote: | P1234567890 wrote:
RND wrote:
P1234567890 wrote:
You were once a single cell. And when you were that single cell, your gender was already determined.
It appears certain 'scientist's' are re-examining the position as to what factors are involved in gender determination. I understand that in the position that there may be other physical interactions that determine which chromosome enters into the egg.
Listen, every diploid cell has a gender. When you were just one cell, your gender was already completely determined.
I don't think this is in dispute. |
I was not disputing anything with you. I said, I don't think this is in dispute.
Did you miss this comment accidentially or are you ignoring it completely?
Because right after this I made specific comments regarding what I was trying to communicate as evidenced by this exchange:
| Quote: |
P1234567890 wrote:
RND wrote:
I don't think this is in dispute.
Ok; it just sounded to me like you were disputing it.
That's just your normally insipid way of understanding people! Laughing
Stems from you thinking you're better that other's. Laughing
But that's ok, God forgives you and so do I.
Anyway...
What I am suggesting is that there have been some studies that suggest that certain physiological actions in the womb, unbeknowst to the "sperm" may work in "selecting" which chromosome has a better chance of interacting with the egg.
The Theory of Pre-zygotic Sex Determination |
This is why I said,
This is not in dispute. I was not communicated what I was trying to say very well, so I said, "This is not in dispute."
Then I went on to do my best to explain what it was I was trying to communicate, as evidenced by the bold comment.
However, all other comments contained in the above post stand true.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RND wrote: | | RND wrote: |
I don't think this is in dispute. |
| Quote: | | Even now, do you realize that you were wrong when you made the claim that gender is determined after the embryo stage??? |
Asked and answered.
|
Good, now we're getting somewhere. Do you remember what my response to that was?
I said,
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Ok; it just sounded to me like you were disputing it.
|
To which you snarkily replied,
| RND wrote: |
That's just your normally insipid way of understanding people!
|
... When in fact what I said was perfectly reasonable given what you had been saying. It really DID seem like you were disputing the truth. You really WERE being unclear and imprecise in your diction. When you're talking science, you have to be very clear and technical.
As for enzymes and sperms entering eggs, I am perfectly willing to entertain what you said. It all seems reasonable. I was just objecting to the things you said which either were wrong or just sounded wrong due to lack of clarity.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RND
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 725
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | [quote="P1234567890"]To which you snarkily replied,
[quote="RND"]
That's just your normally insipid way of understanding people!
|
If the shoe fits.
| Quote: | | ... When in fact what I said was perfectly reasonable given what you had been saying. It really DID seem like you were disputing the truth. You really WERE being unclear and imprecise in your diction. When you're talking science, you have to be very clear and technical. |
Your perception of yourself and how you came accross was correctly characterized by me.
It's just too bad you don't see your errors and your flaws.
| Quote: | | As for enzymes and sperms entering eggs, I am perfectly willing to entertain what you said. It all seems reasonable. I was just objecting to the things you said which either were wrong or just sounded wrong due to lack of clarity. |
Wonderful.
_________________
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
www.heavenlysanctuary.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RND wrote: |
If the shoe fits.
|
You don't get it, do you? The problem here isn't my ability to communicate; it's yours!
This entire problem came about because you were unclear and used poor diction when describing a scientific concept. That was your first mistake; science requires clarity.
Then I (quite appropriately) corrected your errors and gently hinted that you should be more clear, at which point you made your second mistake, namely insulting me personally.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
