An insight into The book of Revelation & The Mass

nobody important · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 517

"Human kind" said the poet TS Elliott, "human kind can not bare very much reality" we need not look far for proof of this assertion. Real life today is what people flee, one by one, each retreating into his private distraction.

The escape routs range from drugs and alcohol to romance novels and "virtual reality" computer games. What is it about reality that human kind finds so unbearable, it is the enormity of evil, its seeming omni presence and power, and our own apparent inability to escape it, indeed our own inability to avoid perpetrating evil, hell it seems is everywhere, in sham imitation of gods omni presence, threatening to consume us, to suffocate us.

This is the reality we cannot bare, yet this is the stark and terrible reality that john portrayed without flinching in revelation, johns beasts loomed monstress, beyond Hollywood’s darkest imaginings, snapping their jaws at the most innocent and vulnerable pray.

A pregnant woman, a baby boy, they despised both nature and grace, church and state, they can sweep a third of the stars from the sky. They are the power behind the throne in the nations and empires; they grow strong from the immorality of the people they seduce. They Get drunk on the wine of their victims fornication, greed and abuse of power. Facing such opposition we must choose either fight or flight.

This is a basic human instinct more over after a superficial evaluation of our own apparent resources and the enemy’s apparent resources; flight might seem the reasonable choice. According to the spiritual masters however flight is not a real option.

In his classical work "spiritual combat" Dom Lorenzo Scipoli wrote "this war is unavoidable you must either fight or die”. The obstinacy of your enemies is so fierce that peace and arbitration with them is utterly impossible... in short we can run from evil but we can’t hide.

More over we cannot ascend to heaven if we flee the battle. God has destined us the church to be the bride of the lamb, yet we cannot rule if we do not first conquer the forces that oppose us, the powers who are pretenders to our throne.

What are we to do we should take a look around us after lifting the Vail of mere human sight. John reveals the most encouraging news for Christians in battle... two thirds of the angels are on our side fighting constantly even while we sleep.

St Michael the archangel, heavens fiercest warrior is our untiring and unbeatable ally, all the saints in heaven constantly call to almighty God for our vindication. Most encouraging of all in the end we win.

John sees the battle from the perspective of eternity. So he can describe the ending as vividly as he describes the casualties. The battle’s rage so fiercely that the rivers run red with blood and corpses lie rotting in the streets.

Yet the victors enter a city who’s streams flow with living water and whose sun never sets. Hear Fr Scipoli again. “If the fury of your enemies is great and their numbers overwhelming, the love god holds for you is infinitely greater, the angel who protects you and the saints who intercede for you are more numerous. We can count on heavenly help.

Who can ask for greater assurance? Yet often we do, many Christians remain troubled because they perceive that Jesus has somehow delayed in coming to help them. This seems especially true when they look at societies degeneracy.

The world seems firmly in the hands of evil forces and despite the prayers of Christians, the evil remains and even prospers. Still revelation shows it is the saints and angels who direct history by their prayers…. More than Washington DC, More than 10 Downing Street, More than the United Nations, more than Wall Street more than any place you can name.

Power belongs to the saints of the most high gathered around the throne of the Lamb. The blood of the martyrs calls to god for vengeance (Rev 6: 9-10) and he vindicates them now as at the dawn of history when Abel’s blood cried out from the earth.

It is the saint’s prayers that immediately call forth the wrath of the lamb against the Great men, the rich and the strong (Rev 6: 15-16) yet the power of the saints is of a different order than the worlds Idea of Power. The wrath of the lamb differs significantly from human vengeance. That may seem self evident but it is worth our deepest contemplation.

Many Christians profess to believe in a heavenly sort of power, which on closer analysis turns out to be worldly power writ large. Consider for a moment Jesus’ Jewish contempories and their worldly expectation of the messiah… he would establish the kingdom of God by military and political means, conquer Rome subdigate the gentiles and so on. We know that such hopes were dashed away.

Rather than marching on Jerusalem with his armies Jesus waged a campaign of Mercy and Love, manifested by the meals shared with tax collectors and other sinners and we all learned our lesson right?

It doesn’t seem that way, because today many Christians hope for the same messianic vengeance as the fist centaury Jews. Though Christ came peacefully the last time they say he will come back with a holy vengeance in the end crushing his foes with almighty force.

But what if Jesus’ second coming turned out to be much like his first?

Would many Christians be disappointed?

Perhaps but I don’t think we should be because even though Revelation narrates its fair share of famine, plagues and pestilences still Chapter 6 portrays gods judgment of the mighty and powerful as “the wrath of the lamb”…

Why does John use the Lamb image here?

What kind of terror can a lamb really inspire?

Why didn’t he speak of the wrath of the lion of Judah?

Similarly why is over coming accomplished after Christ’s first coming by those who “love not their lives even unto death” (Rev 12:11) or why are the opposing sides set forth so unevenly, two dragons and a lamb beast attacked the pregnant woman as she gives birth to the baby messiah.

Sure there is St Michael the Archangel but the best he can do is kick the dragon out of heaven, so now the devil is free to pursue the woman into the wilderness and then make war on the rest of her offspring (us) … in short, clearly the deck is stacked the wrong way.

Then what about the closing scene in Chapter 19 when Christ comes to avenge the blood of his servants, there we see someone called “faithful and True” riding on a white horse accompanied by heavenly hosts in white linen, is this their best Armour? Fighting with nothing but a sword coming “out of his mouth”

Why is it not in his Right hand, why isn’t he swinging it?

Clearly it is the sword of the spirit, the word of God which he is preaching and not a military weapon of mass destruction. Then he takes the beast and the false prophet and throws them alive into the fire and brimstone.

Note that he doesn’t kill them first, doesn’t cut them up or gloat over their corpses.

Next the fate of the wicked is described in the following two chapters, simply in terms of them being excluded from the New Jerusalem… what kind of comeuppance is this? Why is Jesus still a lamb until the very end? And why a marriage supper instead of a victory party?

I would suggest that the expectations of many Christians regarding Christ’s second coming may stand in need of adjustment otherwise we can find ourselves fighting disappointment as did Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries in the first centaury, perhaps we need to rethink the common image of God suppressing his wrath.

By viewing it more in the light of his perfect fatherhood, this does not do away with divine wrath; it simply fits into the consistent picture of God that Jesus provides. Viewing Gods judgment in terms of divine fatherhood does not lower the standard of justice or lessen the severity of judgment. Fathers generally require more from their sons and daughters than judges from defendants.

What then should be our image of Jesus’ second coming?

It is Eucharistic, and it is brought about as the mass brings heaven down to earth. Just as the earthly priest stands over the bread and wine and says, “This is my body” thus transforming the elements so Christ the High priest stands over the cosmos pronouncing the same words. We stand on the earth as the elements stand on the alter, we are here to be transformed, to die to self, live for others and love like God. That is what is happening on the alter of the earth just as it happens on the alters of our churches.

As the fire descended from heaven to consume the sacrifices on Solomon’s alter so the fire descended to consume the disciples at the first Pentecost. The fire is one and the same, it is the Holy Spirit who enables us to be offered up as living sacrifices upon the alter of the earth. That is what makes sense out of the second half of the apocalypse.

It makes sense too out of the events of our everyday lives, in the light of divine fire we see the daily news not as meaningless and unconnected sound bites but as a story who’s ending we already know. All things in history, in world history and in our personal history work together for the good of those who love god. (See Rom 8:28)

For Christ is lord of history, its beginning (see John 1:1) and its end (See 1 Cor 4:5) Christ is firmly in charge and he wants us to reign with him as his bride, thus we must fight to gain our throne but our warfare is hardly grim, we can even look upon it in romantic terms. History is the story of Christ wooing his Church. Gradually drawing all of us to our marriage supper, the banquet of the lamb.

He looks upon us as Adam looked upon Eve and says “this at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh” (Gen 2:23) The Church is at once his bride and his body for in marriage the two become “One Flesh” (see Mat 19:5) Thus Christ looks at us and says “This is my body”

God intends all of history whether the particular events seem good or ill for our side to lead us to the eternal communion of our marriage supper. We must not underestimate Christ’s desire for us to arrive at the feast, remember he is a bridegroom awaiting his bride. So the passionate words he spoke to his apostles are true for us as well. “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you” (Luke 22:15)

Nor must we under estimate Jesus’ power to lead us to the feast; he after all is God Almighty, all knowing. Eternal communion with the church is what he wants and what he wills and it is surely what he accomplishes even now.

Loving communion with his Church is the very reason why God became a man and bled and died and it is the very reason he created the world in the first place. Thus all the events of all time should lead us to the event we see mystically in the last chapters of the book of revelation.

Hell then may seem to prevail in the world but it does not the church is in a sense in charge our prayers and especially the sacrifice of the mass are the force that propels history towards it goal. In fact in the sacrifice of the mass history achieves its goal. Because there Christ and the church celebrate their wedding feast and consummate their marriage.

How then should we understand our on going combat if in a sense history has already reached its goal why should we continue to fight? Because not all the world has come to the feast even if you and I have, so we must continue to ransom the time to restore all things in Christ. Remember that when we go to mass we take along all our professional work, family life, sufferings and leisure and all of these become spiritual sacrifices acceptable to god through Jesus Christ during the celebration of the Eucharist.

God wills that you and I Should play an indispensable role in salvation history, “the spirit and the bride say come” (Rev 22:17) note that it is not just the spirit that issues the call to mankind but the spirit and the bride, the bride is the church, its you and me.

Meanwhile our enemy “the beast” consecrates nothing he works tirelessly sometimes intimidating us by his industry but his labors are sterile, he is 666, the creature perpetually stalled in the sixth day never reaching the seventh day of Sabbath rest and worship.

So the battle goes on and we have enlisted for active duty, we must however begin the fighting very close to home our most dangerous enemies are those we will find in our own soul. Pride, envy, laziness, gluttony, greed, anger and lust. Before we can advance on enemies in society at large we need to identify our own sinful habits and begin to root them out, all the while we need to grow in the wisdom and virtue that make us more like Christ. We can advance only if we come to know ourselves as we really are, that is as we appear to Almighty God.

When John Faced the Lamb of God, he accurately sized up the situation and he fell down to the ground in humility we need to see the truth with the same clarity. Thus we need to see matters in the same divine light. Yet how can we when all around we are attacked by darkness. The only way is for us to step into that same clean where John had his vision, “worship in the spirit on the lords day” which is at the same time “the heavenly city where night shall be no more” (Rev 22:5)

Only in the New Jerusalem will we see ourselves as we are for there we will face judgment there we will read what is written in the book of life, its heaven but we don’t need to die to go there. The New Jerusalem is Mount Zion, it is the Church of the upper room and it touches down for us in the holy mass.

We want to know ourselves so we must use well the parts of the mass that are set apart for self examination the penitential rite for example with “the lord have mercy” and the “I Confess” this requires recollection an interior Quiet that allows us to examine our thoughts words and deeds.

If we want to be recollected it helps to arrive at church well before mass and begin our prayer, interior recollection will enable us to concentrate on the reality of the mass no matter what is going on around us. Come crying babies, bad music or mediocre homilies. Also to prepare for mass we must take frequent advantage of the sacrament of reconciliation, confessing our sins after deep examination of conscience.

Remember the council of the didach the churches oldest liturgical guide we should make confession before receiving the Eucharist so that our sacrifice maybe pure. Though the church only requires us to confess once a year the overwhelming teaching of the saints and popes is that we should go frequently. We should follow good example, knowing that the saints went at least weekly and the most trusted spiritual masters a monthly minimum.

If we are honest before god, then we will find ourselves in our hearts falling down in humility as John did. We will pray with perfect sincerity, the prayer before communion “lord I am not worthy to receive you” What do we see when we stand in light, we see that we are sinners and we are weak but we see much more as well.

We see that in this war we are the stronger side by far. At mass we invoke the angels and we worship beside them as John did, as their equals before god. We call upon their help. Listen closely to the preface of the mass just before we sing the “Holy, Holy, Holy “ we say “Now with the angels and archangels and the whole company of heaven we sing the unending hymn of your praise” Some eastern liturgies even dare to number the angels “ a thousand, thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand hosts of angles and archangels. The word hosts in this context connotes military might like legions or divisions.

The mass it seems is like the Normandy invasion in the spiritual realm. We also invoke the saints acknowledging them by name in the roman cannon eucharistic prayer one the priest reads off a long list of apostles, popes martyrs and other saints, 24 to correspond exactly to those surrounding Gods throne in the apocalypse.

In spiritual warfare the saints are our powerful allies, remember that in revelation gods vengeance follows close upon the prayers of the martyrs beneath his alter. In some eastern liturgies for example, the ancient liturgy of St Mark the congregation echo the martyrs prayers

“Crush under our feet Satan and all his wicked influence, humble now as at all times the enemies of your church, lay bare their pride, speedily show them their weakness. Bring to nothing the wicked plots they contrive against us. Arise O’ Lord and let your enemies be scattered and let all who hate your holy name be put to flight.”

No doubt we’ve got power and might on our side, we say so in the “Holy, Holy, Holy” which we sing together with the angels at every mass we attend we should make sure to give that song all we have got.

Did you ever watch a strong army march in formation? The soldiers move with unified precision and they chant with gusto and confidence, that’s how we should proceed through the mass, confidently, joyfully – its not that we deny the enemy strength we just glory in the fact that God is stronger and God is our strength

Knowing ourselves and the angels of course is not enough we must come to know god more and more and that is an endless and endlessly rewarding pursuit because the more we learn about him the more realize we don’t know and cant know without grace. By coming to know god we come to know what strength and resources we can call upon in battle.

So we should prepare for mass throughout our lives by on going spiritual and doctrinal formation. No soldier would rush untrained into battle, neither should we think we can conquer demons if we are flabby in our faith. We need to put ourselves through the rigors of basic training. Living a sustained and disciplined life of prayer and studying the faith daily, reading the bible using Catholic tapes, TV and Radio and books especially the catechism of the catholic church. All this is a life long task

Our doctrinal study will invest the liturgies every word and gesture with power, we will make the sign of the cross knowing it is the banner we carry into battle and before that banner demons tremble. We will dip our fingers into the holy water knowing in the words of St Theresa of Avila that “ This water makes demons flee”

We will recite every line of the Gloria and the creed as if our lives depended upon it, because they do and what happens on the battle field, we receive Jesus Christ king of Kings and lord of lords in holy communion, the saints tell us that we rout the enemy at that moment and that ever afterward we can keep watch with Jesus’ watchfulness.

A fifth centaury monk of mount Sinai testified that “when that fire enters us it at once drives those evil spirits from our heart and remits the sins we have previously committed and if after this standing at the entrance of our heart we keep strict watch over the intellect when we are again permitted to receive those mysteries, the divine body will illume our human intellect still more and make it shine like a star so the brightness of the mass goes home with us as the perpetual day of the heavenly Jerusalem.

As we grow our mass becomes a light burning within us too even amid our work and family life, that’s security in war time for the weaker army will rarely attack in the light of day and the devil knows when the light of Christ is on one side of the battle, the darkness of hell is the weaker. Yet the battle remains a battle, even if our victory is assured, the fighting itself wont be easy and this is especially true at mass.

“Knowing the power of grace the devil will most forcefully assault us” said one ancient teacher “at the time of the great feast and during the divine liturgy especially when we are intending to receive Holy Communion.”

What is our particular combat during mass?

Well maybe it’s warding off contempt for the worshiper whose perfume is too strong or the man who sings the wrong lyrics off key. Maybe its holding back our judgment against the parishioner who is skipping out early, maybe its turning the other way when we begin to wonder how low that neckline really goes. Maybe it’s fighting off smugness when we hear a homily riddled with grammatical errors. Maybe its smiling in an understanding way at the mother with the screaming baby, those are the tough battles, maybe they are not as romantic as sabers clashing in a far away desert or marching through tear gas to protest at injustice. But because they are so perfectly hidden, so interior they require greater heroism.

No one but god and his angels will notice that you didn’t mentally critic Father’s homily this week. No one but god and his angels will notice that you with held judgment against the family that were underdressed.

So you don’t get a medal, you win a battle instead. The reality unveiled in John’s apocalypse is as terrifying as it is consoling, yet the good news is that with heavenly help we can bare it we are children of the king of the universe. But we live amid constant peril surrounded by dark spiritual forces who want to destroy our souls, our crown and our birthright. Yet the winning is ours for the taking. How right that our ancient tradition associates the mass with the todar ancient Israel’s thanks giving sacrifice.

The todar was the expression of complete confidence in prayer for deliverance from ones enemies a prayer from imminent death and at the same time the todar offered thanks that God would answer ones prayers. Recall too how the rabbi’s predicted that in the messianic age, all sacrifice would cease except the todar thus we pray with confidence in every mass “deliver us from evil” and thus we give glory to god for our deliverance.

In Holy Communion we receive the bread that will sustain us even during the enemies longest siege and what is that bread that will sustain us?

We go to heaven not only when we die or when we go to Rome or when we make a pilgrimage to the holy land, we go to heaven when we go to mass, this is not a symbol, not a metaphor, not a parable, not a figure of speech, it is real.

In the forth centaury St Athinasis wrote "my beloved brethren, it is no temporal feast that we come to but an eternal heavenly feast we do not display it in shadows we approach it in reality" heaven on earth, that’s reality.

That’s where you stood and died last Sunday, what were you thinking then, consider what the lord wanted you to think. Consider his invitation from the book of revelation "he who has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the churches, to him who conquers I will give some of the hidden manna" (Rev 2:17) what is the hidden manna?

Remember the promise Jesus Made when he spoke of manna in Johns Gospel, "your fathers ate manner in the wilderness and they died, this is the bread which comes down from heaven that a man may eat of it and not die, I am the living bread which came down from heaven " (John 6:49-51)

Manna was the daily bread of Gods people in the desert, now Jesus is offering something greater and he is quite specific about his invitation "behold I stand at the door and knock, if anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come into him and eat with him and he with me (Rev 3:20)

So Jesus Really does have a meal on his mind, he wants to share the hidden manner with us and he is the hidden manna, hidden under the Vail of bread and wine. In revelation 4:1 we see too that this is more than an intimate dinner for two, Jesus had stood at the door and knocked and now the door is open, John enters the spirit on the lords day to see priests martyrs and angels gathered around heavens thrown with John we discover, that heavens banquet is a family meal, now with eyes of faith and in the spirit let us begin to see that revelation invites us to a heavenly banquet to a love embrace to Zion, to judgment, to battle.

In the mass as we stand before our heavenly allies the devil is left powerless. Before the alter we approach heaven the fount of infinite grace which alone can change our sinful hearts. At the marriage supper of the lamb we ourselves are enthroned to reign over history by our prayers.

In this millennial season many people will come to you shouting that the end is near and that the latest skirmish across the sea is surely the battle of Armageddon, don’t be frightened, you can tell them that yes, the end is near, yes the apocalypse is now. But the church has always taught that the end is near.... as near as your local Catholic Church and its something we should be running to not from. Any battle that we are impatient to fight with earthly weapons, we should first enter with weapons of the spirit.

You want justice for oppressed people across the globe, you want relief for the martyrs overseas don’t rush first to City hall, if we want to bring about the kingdom we should first worship well, as often as we can wherever the sanctuary of the King touches down in the mass.

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nobody important · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 517

Nobby · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:35 pm Post subject:

Lay off Some of the cut & Paste! We're getting to many Long Post! Confused or disgusted

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nobody important · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 517

John R Nolan · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:09 am Post subject: Catholicism

Roman Catholicism has so little to do with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, let alone the O.T. that any Christian will flee from her as fast as from the devil himself; flee into the loving arms of HIM, He Who gave His life for His children
It is she who is the mother of h......, she who, during the dark ages, by her own admission in her book, "Facts of Our Faith" admits to murdering over 68,000,000 Christians because they would NOT accept the pope as the head of the CHURCH, INSTEAD of CHRIST
Check Foxes Book of Martyrs, Smuckers Glorious Reformations, 50 Years in the church of Rome, amongst any amount of secular histories to ascertain her reality
This is not a condemnation of the poor people who have been born or duped into 'her' clutches, but of her, the great dragon, the w.... who sits on seven hills, on whose hands is the blood of the saints
Come on bro., it is time to forget 'church' and get into the WORD, for IT, HE alone is the ark for this last age

nobody important · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 517

45degreeN

Doctrine destroys discussion doesn't it and this is a prime example.

1.I am a protestant and will not acknowledge the claims to priesthood for the RCC because we are called to a priesthood of all believers.

2.Since the great schism there has not been a full conference of church leaders.

3.The Roman episcopacy was not even the eldest episcopacy, the British was.

4.The RCC claims the power to change the elements from ordinary wine and bread to the flesh and blood of Christ. However this comes to us from Babylon not scripture. What Christ was celebrating was passover a meal full of symbols that pointed to Him and as symbols they still point to Him, not become Him. Otherwise we crucify our Lord each time we perform communion.

5. The Papacy is a pagan title bestowed by the emperor. It comes down from pagan worship and is nothing but the emperor granting a privilege to a big supporter, on fraudulent grounds. (See the decretals of constantine)

6.Mixing of Earthly power and celestial power. The RCC claimed Earthly political power and exercised it from about 400AD until the end of the Holy Roman Empire. Christ Himself self foreswore any Earthly power when confronted with the question by Pontius Pilot. It will be only after HE comes again that Jesus will have His Earthly power confirmed.

7.Killing of martyrs (saints) over issues of doctrine. This is the antithesis of Christlike power.

These issues might be worthy of discussing and how they show the deficits of the RCC any why it cannot be the Vicar of Christ.

nobody important · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 517

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:17 pm Post subject:

hello important,

I have a hard time getting past the...
Thou shalt eat no flesh and drink no blood laws.

Thier there for a reason...
So when the times of testing come we can't say we weren't warned..amen?

Eze 39:17 ¶ And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, [even] a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
Eze 39:18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
Eze 39:19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
Eze 39:20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

God is talking to feathered fowl and beasts of the field sitting at the table of his sacrifice eating flesh and drinking blood...

For some reason this doesn't sit well with me.

Psa 27:1 ¶ [[[A Psalm] of David.]] The LORD [is] my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD [is] the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?
Psa 27:2 When the wicked, [even] mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

Hsa 8:13 They sacrifice flesh [for] the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat [it; but] the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt.

Jhn 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Lev 7:27 Whatsoever soul [it be] that eateth any manner of blood, even that soul shall be cut off from his people.

Lev 17:10 And whatsoever man [there be] of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

Lev 17:14 For [it is] the life of all flesh; the blood of it [is] for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh [is] the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.

So now we have two choices....to drink or not to drink..this is the question.

See this test....??

Deu 12:15 ¶ Notwithstanding thou mayest kill and eat flesh in all thy gates, whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, according to the blessing of the LORD thy God which he hath given thee: the unclean and the clean may eat thereof, as of the roebuck, and as of the hart.
Deu 12:16 Only ye shall not eat the blood; ye shall pour it upon the earth as water.

Jhn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Jhn 19:35 And he that saw [it] bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.

Eze 33:23 ¶ Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 33:24 Son of man, they that inhabit those wastes of the land of Israel speak, saying, Abraham was one, and he inherited the land: but we [are] many; the land is given us for inheritance.

Eze 33:25 Wherefore say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Ye eat with the blood, and lift up your eyes toward your idols, and shed blood: and shall ye possess the land?

Eze 33:26 Ye stand upon your sword, ye work abomination, and ye defile every one his neighbour's wife: and shall ye possess the land?

Eze 33:27 Say thou thus unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; [As] I live, surely they that [are] in the wastes shall fall by the sword, and him that [is] in the open field will I give to the beasts to be devoured, and they that [be] in the forts and in the caves shall die of the pestilence.

Eze 33:28 For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease; and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through.

Eze 33:29 Then shall they know that I [am] the LORD, when I have laid the land most desolate because of all their abominations which they have committed.

Eze 33:30 ¶ Also, thou son of man, the children of thy people still are talking against thee by the walls and in the doors of the houses, and speak one to another, every one to his brother, saying, Come, I pray you, and hear what is the word that cometh forth from the LORD.

Eze 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee [as] my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, [but] their heart goeth after their covetousness.

Eze 33:32 And, lo, thou [art] unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice, and can play well on an instrument: for they hear thy words, but they do them not.

Eze 33:33 And when this cometh to pass, (lo, it will come,) then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.

You know God sends tests to see if we will obey him or not yes?

Since the beginning of time God has been testing man. He sends messages that sound good but are not really good huh?

It's as if...His words aren't enough we need to eat his flesh and drink his blood in order for it to be real....

where is faith then if you lean on those things you see?

And I know that these things are only for a display. They are not truly flesh and blood but yet they represent them.
And people come and eat and drink believing that they are truly eating and drinking flesh and blood.

There is a story about Moses raising a brass serpent in the desert and whoever was bitten by a snake would look at the image and they would not die. But it became such an idol to them that they worshipped the image of the snake. So God had Moses destroy it...

It's not the images that are important... They will be destroyed and if you are not careful then you will be destroyed along with them.

I ask you something from common sense...

If your son was slain...and you watched while people came and ate his flesh and drank his blood.....

how would that make you feel?

Consider how many people in the world are devouring Christs flesh and blood...How many are tearing at him, pulling him to pieces and eating as if they were ravenous wolves...

I know you probably don't see it like this...but it is the image I have in my mind. When we are told "DO NOT" then we "DO".
And when we are told "DO" then we "DO NOT"....

God sends tests to man to see if we will listen.....and these tests come in many shapes and forms....
serpents, idols, foods, men.....many different tests.

Ask yourself...Is it good to eat blood....?

Is it good to slay a man and tear his body apart and eat his flesh and drink his blood?

When Jesus walked this earth He prophesied of things that were, things that are, and things that were to come. Not only in the book of revelation but his whole ministry. He is the walking talking spirit of Prophecy. He knew the hearts of men. He knew that mens heart are lustful after flesh and blood...

Since the beginning of time man has killed...it started with Abel and slaying the lamb. And then it was Cain slaying his brother.

God gave man every green thing and herb of the garden to eat but it wasn't enough. They desired more. They wanted flesh to eat, they desired meat to fill their bellies.
So God gave them what they wanted...yes he did...

you get what you ask for...you may not realize at the time that there is a reward or a penalty for those things we desire but there is.

Eye for eye and tooth for tooth I don't believe God has ever disregarded this law. He made it more strict not less strict.

We quote the verse..whatsoever a man sows that shall he reap...
The concept is the same...

If you eat blood then your own blood will be eaten. If you eat flesh then your own flesh will be eaten. If you bow down and worship idols then your idols will be your gods. If you kill with the sword you will be killed with the sword...If you follow men.....then they will lead you wherever it is their headed.
So one should be careful of whom they choose to follow.

God got upset with man because they wanted a king like the other nations had. But God gave them what they wanted. And sometimes they were good and sometimes they brought the people into captivity and bondage.

But the people believed it was better to have a king and a ruler than to have God himself...so they got what they asked for.

You believe the Pope is the Icon of God on earth? God says his throne is in heaven and the earth is his footstool.

The Pope reigns over the people as the leader. Jesus says who shall ever desire to be the most let him be the least.

I refuse to kiss a ring. I don't care who's wearing it. I call no man on earth Father because I have one Father and he is in heaven.
Unless Rome is heaven...

No difference between Rome, Babylon, and Jerusalem. They all think they own the kingdom of God. And no one owns heaven but God alone.

Stand up, kneel, sit, kneel, stand up, sit, kneel, sit, stand up.....

It's good exercise....but what does it teach us?

God doesn't bend the rules. Men bend the rules and says God said it was ok for us to bend the rules....

Who has the keys....?

Man or God?

Another test....

whatsoever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven and whatsoever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven....

You think that man has more control over heaven and earth than God?

mankind...silly little children...

think we can out smart God himself...NOT

Psa 140:1 ¶ [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.]] Deliver me, O LORD, from the evil man: preserve me from the violent man;
Psa 140:2 Which imagine mischiefs in [their] heart; continually are they gathered together [for] war.
Psa 140:3 They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison [is] under their lips. Selah.
Psa 140:4 Keep me, O LORD, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from the violent man; who have purposed to overthrow my goings.
Psa 140:5 The proud have hid a snare for me, and cords; they have spread a net by the wayside; they have set gins for me. Selah.
Psa 140:6 I said unto the LORD, Thou [art] my God: hear the voice of my supplications, O LORD.
Psa 140:7 O GOD the Lord, the strength of my salvation, thou hast covered my head in the day of battle.
Psa 140:8 Grant not, O LORD, the desires of the wicked: further not his wicked device; [lest] they exalt themselves. Selah.
Psa 140:9 [As for] the head of those that compass me about, let the mischief of their own lips cover them.
Psa 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
Psa 140:11 Let not an evil speaker be established in the earth: evil shall hunt the violent man to overthrow [him].
Psa 140:12 I know that the LORD will maintain the cause of the afflicted, [and] the right of the poor.
Psa 140:13 Surely the righteous shall give thanks unto thy name: the upright shall dwell in thy presence.

vengeance:

Jer 46:10 For this [is] the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
Jer 50:15 Shout against her round about: she hath given her hand: her foundations are fallen, her walls are thrown down: for it [is] the vengeance of the LORD: take vengeance upon her; as she hath done, do unto her.
Jer 50:28 The voice of them that flee and escape out of the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the LORD our God, the vengeance of his temple.

1Cr 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Isa 8:9 Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
Isa 8:15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.

whatsoever a man sows that shall he reap.

Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

Jhn 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

It's my conscience that won't allow me to participate in breaking the body and drinking the blood...

I fear God more than man...Amen?

I see a test...

Psa 22:13 They gaped upon me [with] their mouths, [as] a ravening and a roaring lion.

Psa 78:22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:
Psa 78:23 Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,
Psa 78:24 And had rained down manna upon them to eat, and had given them of the corn of heaven.
Psa 78:25 Man did eat angels' food: he sent them meat to the full.
Psa 78:26 He caused an east wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the south wind.
Psa 78:27 He rained flesh also upon them as dust, and feathered fowls like as the sand of the sea:
Psa 78:28 And he let [it] fall in the midst of their camp, round about their habitations.
Psa 78:29 So they did eat, and were well filled: for he gave them their own desire;
Psa 78:30 They were not estranged from their lust. But while their meat [was] yet in their mouths,
Psa 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen [men] of Israel.
Psa 78:32 For all this they sinned still, and believed not for his wondrous works.

Be careful what you ask for....

Jer 45:5 And seekest thou great things for thyself? seek [them] not: for, behold, I will bring evil upon all flesh, saith the LORD: but thy life will I give unto thee for a prey in all places whither thou goest.

Luk 17:33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

1Cr 11:27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink [this] cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Rev 16:4 ¶ And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
Rev 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
Rev 16:7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous [are] thy judgments.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

nobody important · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Nov 2006 Posts: 517

Hi lone traveler... I am sorry I never read any of your posts...not one have I read yet... I sometimes scan them but i never really read them....but this one troubled me and I paid more attention to it.

I share your concerns, your worries and I am unable to set them at ease for myself or for you. I am not armed with understanding, you have exposed in me a weakness, you have called me to defend my faith and I am unable, the thread is yours..the battle is yours... I am unable to answer your concerns and instead take them upon me also, my only course of action is to put my trust in Jesus Christ and in the church he established for good or for ill... I trust in the shepherds Christ has sent, I do not feel I am an orphen because I trust in Jesus Christ and the promises he made but I will make it my business to seek their help in understanding this to ease my own troubled mind...but my faith in Christ and his promises to his church will never die and through my faith in Christ and his Church my faith in the eucharist will never die....but i am wounded and my heart troubled and I present to you victory in battle and yet it is not so much a victory because we have both lost, me my peace of mind and you through my inability also not gained peice of mind...we both remian troubled and lacking understanding but it is a victory for you none the less even if it be an empty vicorty....enjoy it, its what you aimed for.

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 731 Location: WV

Lone,
Starting in Acts and down through the ages Christians have observed communion through the elements of bread and wine. Jesus told us to do this. Are you saying Jesus told us to do something displeasing to God? You think it is a trick to make us do something wrong??? As if our own human nature doesn't do enough to make us sin, God decides to throw more confusion at us so that we're worse off after the Son than we before??? I ain't buyin' that theology!!!

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 2:08 pm Post subject:

Hello important,
I'm sorry truly if I caused you any discomfort. I'm not asking for you to defend your faith in God I just wish you didn't put all your faith in the religious system. Everyone from time everlasting has been seeking power to rule over others. And more often then not they do this through fear. Fear that if you don't do it their way somehow you will fail God.

You will not fail God. He is more concerned about you than the whole entire universe. And He loves you and all of us more than we will ever know.

My concern comes from putting our faith in things that are created with our own might and our own hands. They do fall and they do fail. But God himself is everlasting. He has no physical house that he resides in. He resides in each and everyone of us who believes in Him.

I know you say that you trust in the shepherds that Jesus has sent, but not all shepherds are trustworthy, and you need to keep a watch on your own soul too. There are a lot of warnings in the bible about shepherds who go out and look for their own gain, leading many astray.

There is no perfect church or denomination that hasn't got some kind of weekness in it. All have been constructed by man to reach God in the heavens. The first one ever built was the tower of Babel, where men tried to build a tower to reach the heavens...that is to reach God. You can't climb up into heaven. God comes down to man and he lifts us up himself. It's not something we can attain without Him.

Even the beautiful temple that Israel built had faults and God was there with them in the Ark of the Covenant. They put their trust and faith in those things that they used to worship God. They put their faith in the sacrifices and the offerings in the very fabric of the church. If the bowls weren't washed right or if they didn't bathe so many times a day...all these things they trusted in for their salvation....these are just things....

They lost sight of God sitting right there in front of them. They performed all the duties all around him but never truly loved him. They loved their own deeds more than the one they performed them for.

The same is today as it was yesterday. Men believe that God desires rituals and sacrifices and certain times and observances....but all these things have gotten man into trouble in the past. And we just keep making the same mistakes over and over again.

No matter what the name whether it be Judaism, Christianity, Buddhism, Mormonism...they all fall in the same way...observations and rituals.

It's these very things which we believe please God, which in fact draw us farther away from him.

God is spirit. He has no earthly fleshly form. We are his form him in us. As individuals and as a whole human race. We are not a physical building, but a building made up of emotions and hearts and tears and thoughts and ideas...a living moving breathing house of God.

No man has the right to tell you how you should or shouldn't worship the God you love, the one you put your very life into's hands. They have no right to tell you that you have to go through them or confess to them in order for God to hear your prayers. They are men. They are not God.

There is not one in any office of a church or monestary or synagogue that is any better or in any higher position of authority than you yourself when you come before God yourself. For man to laud over other men and say you can not approach God you must come through me first....This is not what God has said.

Psa 4:3 But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

Psa 5:3 My voice shalt thou hear in the morning, O LORD; in the morning will I direct [my prayer] unto thee, and will look up.

Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I [am] the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

I have a problem with the rituals because they come between God and me. If I put more thought and time into making sure I say something just right or walking a certain way or just being more careful to the items of the services then that puts a divider between what is truly in my heart and the things that I'm doing as a ritual.

There are a good many things that the bible says we aught not do, and yet when I look around at all the different denominations many do those things their told not to. So how can I put my faith in a system that claims they Love God but doesn't do what he says?

Jesus said..Call no man on earth Father because you have one Father and that is God in heaven. Yet many churches set those in the church with the title "Father". Here is a direct command...yet man changes it to fit because they truly enjoy the authority that comes with the title.

There are a lot of holidays and feast days that are kept for the Lord. But many do not even know what these represent or why they were instituted in the first place. They say they are christian but when you get to the roots of them you find that many of them are not on a good foundation of faith in God. They are set up and disguised into worshipping other deities and gods. A thing God strictly commands everyone not to do.

Israel thought they had it right. They were doing everything they were told to do..and then some...but they lacked the truth. They worshipped the creations of their own hands. Whether that be churches or peoples.

No one owns a people. Only God owns us. He created us, He feeds us, He loves us, He punishes us, We belong to him and him alone. Not to this church or that flock or this synagogue or that congregation.

These divisions we have caused ourse