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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6805
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Do you think it's ok to marry 9-year-old 'women' and then consummate the marriage? |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Do you think it's ok to marry 9-year-old 'women' and then consummate the marriage? |
Let me break this down for you.
In Islam, what determines whether a woman can get married is whether or not she has reached adulthood. And adulthood is not just defined by a number, it is defined as when the boy/girl has reached puberty. Muslim Scholars overwhemlingly agree that the minimum age of marriage is puberty. Other things such as whether kids are now responsible for their actions etc are also determined by when they hit puberty.
So basically, Aisha (ra) was married when she a women, i.e. had reached puberty and an age of biological maturity. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6805
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Do you think it's ok to marry 9-year-old 'women' and then consummate the marriage? |
Let me break this down for you.
In Islam, what determines whether a woman can get married is whether or not she has reached adulthood. And adulthood is not just defined by a number, it is defined as when the boy/girl has reached puberty. Muslim Scholars overwhemlingly agree that the minimum age of marriage is puberty. Other things such as whether kids are now responsible for their actions etc are also determined by when they hit puberty.
So basically, Aisha (ra) was married when she a women, i.e. had reached puberty and an age of biological maturity. |
So it was ok that Mohammed married her and consummated the marriage? |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Do you think it's ok to marry 9-year-old 'women' and then consummate the marriage? |
Let me break this down for you.
In Islam, what determines whether a woman can get married is whether or not she has reached adulthood. And adulthood is not just defined by a number, it is defined as when the boy/girl has reached puberty. Muslim Scholars overwhemlingly agree that the minimum age of marriage is puberty. Other things such as whether kids are now responsible for their actions etc are also determined by when they hit puberty.
So basically, Aisha (ra) was married when she a women, i.e. had reached puberty and an age of biological maturity. |
So it was ok that Mohammed married her and consummated the marriage? |
Yep. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6805
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
So it was ok that Mohammed married her and consummated the marriage? |
Yep. |
I don't know about where you live, but in civilized countries we have words to describe people who have sex with children who aren't even into double digits yet... We call them pedophiles.
We also have words to describe people who advocate for them...
Usually, I'm all for logical and rational debate, but what's the point of arguing with someone who thinks it's ok for dirty old men to have sex with children? You're sick and your entire world view is so far-gone that you're beyond help. What you're advocating is totally uncivilized and barbaric.
Way to go; I thought that some of the extreme Christians on this site were beyond help, but you've managed to exceed them all!
Do you ever have sex with pre-teens? |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
So it was ok that Mohammed married her and consummated the marriage? |
Yep. |
I don't know about where you live, but in civilized countries we have words to describe people who have sex with children who aren't even into double digits yet... We call them pedophiles.
We also have words to describe people who advocate for them...
Usually, I'm all for logical and rational debate, but what's the point of arguing with someone who thinks it's ok for dirty old men to have sex with children? You're sick and your entire world view is so far-gone that you're beyond help. What you're advocating is totally uncivilized and barbaric.
Way to go; I thought that some of the extreme Christians on this site were beyond help, but you've managed to exceed them all!
Do you ever have sex with pre-teens? |
Save the self righteous civilised drivel please.
How can you accuse him of paedophilia if, as I have proved, Aisha was a woman at the time the marriage was consumated? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6805
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
How can you accuse him of paedophilia if, as I have proved, Aisha was a woman at the time the marriage was consumated? |
You didn't prove squat. EVEN IF Aisha had passed puberty by the time she was 9 years old (which is a highly questionable assertion), how the hell does that make one bit of difference?
Having sex with pre-teens is pedophilia and it is rape. The issue of puberty is TOTALLY irrelevant.
Mohammed was like in his 60s at the time and Aisha was a pre-teen... The idea of him having sex with her is so repulsive it almost makes me gag!
Your 'prophet' was a pervert, a child molester, and a rapist!
The fact that you think this is ok just shows how far Islam has twisted your mind! |
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Negative Overload
Little Goldfish
Joined: 01 Mar 2007
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:15 am Post subject: |
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Wait...do I have this straight?
The marriage and deflowering of the nine-year-old...is ok because a bunch of people said she was a woman?
Did people back then really think starting puberty was a sign of readiness for the world of adulthood, i.e. marriage, sex, and childbirth? Not going through it, but STARTING it?
And even if they did...does that still make it right, or even OK?
Or is this one of those "Well it was acceptable back THEN!" arguments? I'm not sure it is, since someone's arguing it's OK from the present...
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My head's a-muddle... |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1307
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:51 am Post subject: |
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no, you've pretty well got it right...
In Islam, there is the Koran (the word of God as told to Mohammed) and the Haddith (the biography of Muhammed and his closest followers)...both were originally oral traditions that were later written down (by other male followers)...
so, yes...you're understanding what he said as they intend it....despite how it conflicts with every Enlightened occurance since the 1100s....
The story of Aisha and Mohammed was even recently used as a clarification of marriage laws in (Egypt? Saudi Arabia? I forget which....I can find the article, but will take a bit)...so, yes, this is still used today. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6805
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:00 am Post subject: |
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In fact, some sources say that Aisha was only 6 or 7 when she was betrothed to Mohammed, but that the marriage was only consummated when she was 9...
In any case, Mohammed was in his 50s at the time, so I'm going to just throw this one out there:
It's NEVER ok for ANYONE to have sex with a nine-year-old, and it especially isn't ok if he's old enough to be her grandfather!!!
The funny thing about Tiptronic is that there is considerable debate within Islam about how old Aisha was when Mohammed had sex with her.
Normal Muslims who want to paint Mohammed in the best light possible insist that the scriptures show that Aisha was 19 years old at the time (which is still pretty gross, if you ask me).
But Tiptronic is making a VERY unusual (and perverse) argument. He's saying that Aisha was 9 at the time but that it was ok... How messed up is that??? |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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You know, historically, puberty was indeed the landmark for when marriage (incl. consummation) became "ok", and clearly Mohammed and Aisha fit into that period of history.
Further, it's "ok" everywhere else in the animal kingdom; it's only since we became more aware that we've realized that it's not necessarily "ok" just because the participants started puberty. Marriage, consummation, and everything that comes with them, have more meaning now - more to be ready for - than is historically so, and for the simple reason that we've made it more than it initially was.
Now, obviously Mohammed and Aisha were part of an era where gender equality was, shall we say, not prized. However, their marriage (etc) was acceptable in that time because of the puberty issue and because women did not share the rights that they do today, in western culture. In his time, Mohammed was not commiting paedophilia and he was not commiting rape. If he tried it today, there'd be much more outcry. Who's to say that he would try it, though? Perhaps in this day and age, he might also have played by our rules. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6805
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:59 am Post subject: |
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You can't make that argument to defend him, though. Religious people see the world in complete black and white. Morality is absolute. You always hear them say stuff like, "If it wasn't ok back then, then it's not ok today.", and some version of, "You atheists with your moral relativism..."
So in this case they get skewered by their own beliefs. If pedophilia and child rape are wrong today (and clearly they are), then they were clearly wrong and sinful back then as well.
You and I might be able to see morality in a more contextual way, but they sure can't; they need it to be absolute!  |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
You and I might be able to see morality in a more contextual way, but they sure can't; they need it to be absolute! |
Maybe so, but they'll use it when it suits them - eg. defending Mohammed, outlawing slavery, eating shellfish, not stoning your children to death for disobeying you - and I for one am glad! |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6805
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
You and I might be able to see morality in a more contextual way, but they sure can't; they need it to be absolute! |
Maybe so, but they'll use it when it suits them - eg. defending Mohammed, outlawing slavery, eating shellfish, not stoning your children to death for disobeying you - and I for one am glad! |
True, which is why it surprised me so much when Tiptronic didn't do this and instead argued that Mohammed having sex with Aisha despite her not having reached double digits yet was ok because it says somewhere that it's ok. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
You and I might be able to see morality in a more contextual way, but they sure can't; they need it to be absolute! |
Maybe so, but they'll use it when it suits them - eg. defending Mohammed, outlawing slavery, eating shellfish, not stoning your children to death for disobeying you - and I for one am glad! |
True, which is why it surprised me so much when Tiptronic didn't do this and instead argued that Mohammed having sex with Aisha despite her not having reached double digits yet was ok because it says somewhere that it's ok. |
But it WAS okay. It's not okay NOW, but it WAS at the time. If Tiptronic argued anywhere that the same behaviour is justifiable now, he wouldn't have a leg to stand on, but I don't think he is saying that. |
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