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Was Mohammed Evil?


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P1234567890
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Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:36 pm    Post subject: Was Mohammed Evil? Reply with quote
Apparently there is a very good argument to be made that Mohammed was a pedophile. It is said that he married his last bride Aisha when she was six years old and that he consummated the marriage when she was nine. He would have been in his fifties at the time if this is true.

There are all sorts of arguments for and against Mohammed being a pedophile, but probably the most compelling is from Aisha's own pen. She wrote one of the Hadith books and she herself writes that he had sex with her when she was nine.

Anyways, you can make up your own mind; there's a big Wikipedia article on it right here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha%27s_age_at_marriage

It would kinda put a damper on the whole religion if it's true, wouldn't it?
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FFT
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005

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Location: Memphis
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:12 am    Post subject: Re: Was Mohammed Evil? Reply with quote
P1234567890 wrote:
It would kinda put a damper on the whole religion if it's true, wouldn't it?
Why?
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P1234567890
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Joined: 11 Mar 2006

Posts: 6772

Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Was Mohammed Evil? Reply with quote
FFT wrote:
P1234567890 wrote:
It would kinda put a damper on the whole religion if it's true, wouldn't it?
Why?


Because it would mean that their prophet was a pedophile...

Religious leaders in general and especially prophets are expected to be pillars of morality... Having sex with nine-year-olds is kind of unbecomming, and throws pretty much everything else that Mohammed ever did or said into doubt.

For example, would it be morally difficult for a pedophile to lie, say about having a revelation in a cave?
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Pondering
Lion King



Joined: 15 Sep 2005

Posts: 1285
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
just for point of argument...the religion is the source of that morality (generally)...you're measuring what you determine to be "moral" based on a Judeo-Christian ethic...whether you are religious or not, our culture has been shaped heavily by those traditions...

Now, if the source of your moral authority was a pedophile, then pedophilia is morally accepted and therefore, not evil....
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P1234567890
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Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pondering wrote:
just for point of argument...the religion is the source of that morality (generally)...you're measuring what you determine to be "moral" based on a Judeo-Christian ethic...whether you are religious or not, our culture has been shaped heavily by those traditions...

Now, if the source of your moral authority was a pedophile, then pedophilia is morally accepted and therefore, not evil....


Yeah, sure, but you can use this same argument to prove that for any crime x, x is not evil.

Let's make this simple. Assume for a second that pedophilia is evil. Then either Muslims support pedophilia or they think it's bad. If they support it, then their entire religion is evil. If they think it's bad, then they have no choice but to agree that their prophet was evil, which undercuts their entire faith. In either case we have a situation which isn't very good for Islam.

And I would argue that the assumption of pedophilia being evil isn't such a large leap to make...
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FFT
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Was Mohammed Evil? Reply with quote
P1234567890 wrote:
For example, would it be morally difficult for a pedophile to lie, say about having a revelation in a cave?
The problem is you're using present attitudes about marrying children to judge past attitudes about marrying children — presentism isn't a good starting point for an argument.
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P1234567890
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Joined: 11 Mar 2006

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Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Was Mohammed Evil? Reply with quote
FFT wrote:
P1234567890 wrote:
For example, would it be morally difficult for a pedophile to lie, say about having a revelation in a cave?
The problem is you're using present attitudes about marrying children to judge past attitudes about marrying children — presentism isn't a good starting point for an argument.


EXACTLY! I totally agree with you. But you and I are moral relativists.

If you're religious (and my post is primarily aimed at religious people), then you believe in moral absolutism. In other words, you believe that what is right and wrong is completely independent of time... Something can't be a sin on Tuesday and then be ok on Wednesday. Either something has always been wrong, or it has always been ok.

You might be able to rebutt my argument, but religious people sure can't!

So like I said, this presents a real problem for Muslims. Either their faith says that pedophilia is ok, in which case their faith is evil. Or it's not ok, in which case they have to condemn their own prophet... Dare I say it?.... Sounds like a rock and a hard place to me... Wink
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FFT
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Location: Memphis
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
P1234567890 wrote:
You might be able to rebutt my argument, but religious people sure can't!
Sure they can. Where in the Bible does it say that pedophilia is wrong? God is unchanging, but I would hope that even the most hardheaded fundamentalist wouldn't deny that people change all the time.

P123456790 wrote:
Either their faith says that pedophilia is ok, in which case their faith is evil. Or it's not ok, in which case they have to condemn their own prophet...
Or their faith says absolutely zip on the subject and this is an empty argument?
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P1234567890
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Joined: 11 Mar 2006

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Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
FFT wrote:
P1234567890 wrote:
You might be able to rebutt my argument, but religious people sure can't!
Sure they can. Where in the Bible does it say that pedophilia is wrong? God is unchanging, but I would hope that even the most hardheaded fundamentalist wouldn't deny that people change all the time.

P123456790 wrote:
Either their faith says that pedophilia is ok, in which case their faith is evil. Or it's not ok, in which case they have to condemn their own prophet...
Or their faith says absolutely zip on the subject and this is an empty argument?


That just pushes the argument back one step. If a religion is silent on pedophilia, then there are only two possibilities:

1. The religion allows it.
2. The religion doesn't allow it. (aka That's such an obvious thing, of course it didn't have to be explicitly included.)

Now, in the case of Islam, Mohammed seems to have been a pedophile, so the religion must allow it. Islam allows pedophilia, and therefore it is evil. Or, if it doesn't allow it, then its own prophet was evil. In either case, it's a really bad situation for Islam. QED

The only way out that I see for them is to vehemently deny that Aisha was 9 years old when the marriage was consummated.
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Pondering
Lion King



Joined: 15 Sep 2005

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
First, I find myself in the odd position of defending Islam and pedophilia, neither of which are "good" in my book....yet, in the interest of arguing with P#s, here I am Smile

OK...

I think the bigger point is the danger in using an ancient text to relate to "modern" events....the social context is so different that the comparisons are dangerous. However, I think you're making an incorrect connection between legal age of marriage (in a day when the average lifespan was probably somewhere in the 30s to 40s) to pedophilia. Even in early america, women often married between 12-16 years old to older/established men (who could provide for them), not always of their own choosing. Did that make those men pedophiles? I think that something similar happened in ancient arabia...moreover, you add the sexual tension of a culture that forbids male-female interaction outside of marriage and I think that may have driven the marriage age down too.

Do I think the current use of an ancient "tradition" to be barbaric? absolutely...so too do I find the arranged marriage and "women as property" themes in many cultures barbaric...but not necessarily "Evil".

The Bible has a prettty detailed story of incest...Lot's daughters got him drunk and lay with him in order to carry on the family line (Gen 19:32). Everyone seems good with that and uses the story of Lot to show what "God fearing" man can do...but I don't think it's a good story to teach our kids....
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P1234567890
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Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pondering wrote:
First, I find myself in the odd position of defending Islam and pedophilia, neither of which are "good" in my book....yet, in the interest of arguing with P#s, here I am Smile

OK...

I think the bigger point is the danger in using an ancient text to relate to "modern" events....the social context is so different that the comparisons are dangerous. However, I think you're making an incorrect connection between legal age of marriage (in a day when the average lifespan was probably somewhere in the 30s to 40s) to pedophilia. Even in early america, women often married between 12-16 years old to older/established men (who could provide for them), not always of their own choosing. Did that make those men pedophiles? I think that something similar happened in ancient arabia...moreover, you add the sexual tension of a culture that forbids male-female interaction outside of marriage and I think that may have driven the marriage age down too.


This is essentially the same rebuttal that FFT brought up against my argument. I completely agree that when we start judging things anachronistically, we get inappropriate results. So if this were an academic forum where everyone was a moral relativist, then I probably wouldn't even have made my original argument.

But this is a forum filled with people who are more or less moral absolutists. Religious people believe in an absolute right and an absolute wrong. What was wrong in the year 53 A.D. is wrong today because the passage of time does not change right and wrong. So I agree that you and FFT have a good rebuttal... But religious people (who are mostly moral absolutists) can't use your argument.
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P1234567890
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Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pondering wrote:

Do I think the current use of an ancient "tradition" to be barbaric? absolutely...so too do I find the arranged marriage and "women as property" themes in many cultures barbaric...but not necessarily "Evil".


I've noticed that you've objected to my use of the word 'evil' a few times. I think that you and I must use the word differently. I have no objection to replacing all instances of the word 'evil' in my arguments to 'barbaric'.
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Pondering
Lion King



Joined: 15 Sep 2005

Posts: 1285
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
P1234567890 wrote:
[... But religious people (who are mostly moral absolutists) can't use your argument.


Understand...and FWIW, I do think there are absolutes of "good" and "evil" and long shade of grey between them...

However, I'd still say that you're using a Judeo-Christian basis to define barbaric/evil for what is essentially an Arab-Islamic issue. It's sorta like trying to measure volume of a space with a thermometer.

So, from their point of view:
1) Mohammed is Allah's (last) prophet
2) Mohammed can do no wrong and his life is a model for others
3) Mohammed married a young girl
4) Islamists can marry young girls.

All that said, this is why I hold that no ancient text (the Bible included) has the prescription for "good" living, but rather experience over time has produced destructive civilizations that have fallen away and constructive civilizations that have "prospered"....those ancient texts may have some positive indicators and serve as valid stepping stones, but none should (and in the west, are not generally) be taken literally. One of the problems with fundamentalistic Islam is that they aspire to recreate the world as it was in the 7th century.
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P1234567890
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Location: Toronto, Canada
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pondering wrote:
P1234567890 wrote:
[... But religious people (who are mostly moral absolutists) can't use your argument.


Understand...and FWIW, I do think there are absolutes of "good" and "evil" and long shade of grey between them...

However, I'd still say that you're using a Judeo-Christian basis to define barbaric/evil for what is essentially an Arab-Islamic issue. It's sorta like trying to measure volume of a space with a thermometer.

So, from their point of view:
1) Mohammed is Allah's (last) prophet
2) Mohammed can do no wrong and his life is a model for others
3) Mohammed married a young girl
4) Islamists can marry young girls.


Let's be clear. The least one should say:

4) Islamists can marry AND HAVE SEX with nine-year-old girls.

I agree that I am judging all of this using modern Judeo-Christian values, but I argue that child rape is so far outside the accepted morality of ANY reasonable culture that it is not hard to condemn. We're talking about a girl that would be in grade 3 or 4 here! I have a pretty easy argument to win. I get to make all sorts of witty rhetorical quips like:

Having sex with young girls who have barely mastered long division is just wrong.

And how do you rebutt that?
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FFT
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Joined: 26 Mar 2005

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Location: Memphis
PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
P1234567890 wrote:
We're talking about a girl that would be in grade 3 or 4 here!
Except that there, she wouldn't have ever been schooled.

P1234567890 wrote:
Having sex with young girls who have barely mastered long division is just wrong.

And how do you rebutt that?
My last girlfriend wasn't too good with math Confused or disgusted

But then, there were only a very few, if any women in that time that could divide.

And further, there is contention on the matter of how old she was even among relatively contemporary sources. Some place her age at twelve, some as high as nineteen. Before insisting that Mohammad must have been evil period you'd have to come to a conclusion about Aisha's age which is not necessarily possible.
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