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IronSharpensIron
House Cat
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Seoul, Korea
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IronSharpensIron
House Cat
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Seoul, Korea
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 Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 1:16 am Post subject: |
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The above post gives you 3 options in Iraq...From the article
| Quote: | | Even so, there is concern that such a radical shift in the U.S. posture in Iraq could further damage the standing of its government, which U.S. officials worry is already shaky. Under the hybrid plan, the short increase in U.S. troop levels would be followed by a long-term plan to radically cut the presence, perhaps to 60,000 troops. |
 I also heard Syria is demanding a time table of withdrawal...will they get one?
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Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:00 am Post subject: |
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| IronSharpensIron wrote: | | And now Fox is putting out that OJ Simpson garbage-itll be interesting to see if they ever get right... |
Fox and Fox News are separate entities.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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IronSharpensIron
House Cat
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 2:52 am Post subject: |
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Thanks FFT-for pointing that out- I saw that emblem they use and since it is the same well...my bad.
Anyway I just got done watching roundtable on ABC that they show here on AFN. Interesting discussion-seems that most do not see us going large at all and the bigger question is when its time to take responsibilty for the aftermath of the war will the Dems be part of it? Good question. I think we all know that many are waiting to see what the dems will do. As for who is responsible and how much further will we wade into this mess I dont see us going large, but long yes, and will it help-prolly not... 
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Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 6:02 am Post subject: |
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Random thoughts on a few issues discussed up to this point:
Troop strength: Interesting that in WWII, units were deployed "for the duration"...yes, they were pulled of the line for R&R, but never all the way to the States. Of course, that was a war fought by citizen soldiers, many of whom were conscripts, but still...what a fundamental difference in warfare.
Democrats: Sadly, I fear that they're going to do everything they can to increase their majority in the House and Senate and get a Democratic President. Sad when party politics and the quest for Power superceeds what's good for the nation 
The Draft: See point above. The guy (Rep Rangel) who sponsored this bill (and he did it once before (Oct '04)...voted against it when it came to a vote. Hmmmm....now why would that be?
Focus and Education: Sadly, I think our media still does too much "fear hype" without real explanation and our celebrity worship is just boring to me. This past weekend, there was more coverage of Tom Cruise's wedding than the rising situation in Lebanon (Hizbullah is about to use the democratic process to seize power in Lebanon much like Hamas did in Palestine...)
I watched Glenn Beck’s (on CNN of all places) special on Islamic supremacism, Exposed: The Extremist Agenda. Even he admitted that it took months to get the network to agree to air it. Transcript is here. You might be able to catch some segments on youtube.
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Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Pondering... loved your post. 
This was priceless:
| Quote: | | I watched Glenn Beck’s (on CNN of all places) |
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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HERE is your You Tube citation.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Democrats: Sadly, I fear that they're going to do everything they can to increase their majority in the House and Senate and get a Democratic President. Sad when party politics and the quest for Power superceeds what's good for the nation |
I would argue that invading Iraq has been the biggest mistake and the worst thing for the United States that has happened for a long time. Disbanding the Iraqi military, ignoring the Pentagon's recommendations on troop levels, etc.: Sad when stupidity supercedes what's good for the nation.
Just a few days ago Iraq had its deadliest day yet of the war... Things are getting worse rather than better. I fear that Iraq is going to end up being a much larger mess than anyone is anticipating.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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IronSharpensIron
House Cat
Joined: 03 Sep 2006
Posts: 172
Location: Seoul, Korea
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:31 am Post subject: |
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A huge mistake is correct- we are losing...but some new points-this whole baker report thing.
What is its purpose? Is it to save face? Or is it to find solutions?
If we embrace Iran and Syria we surely cannot put sanctions on Iran, and make them stop uranium enrichment, or bomb them. In the outcome will we support the nuke bomb they want?
Because of the whoopin we are takin in Iraq and Afhganistan, we are no longer the dominant force previously thought of by people around the world-we have been humbled- and can no longer make demands like we could B4.
We must leave iraq-ASAP- or go broke, and if we don't use diplomacy to kiss and make up to Iran and Syria- we face other economic woes in the form of petroleum purchase. Alternative fuels wont come too soon.
The future of the US is being determined on a daily basis in the middle east and how we handle it right now...
_________________
Proverbs 27:17
17 As iron sharpens iron,
so one man sharpens another. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:50 am Post subject: |
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| IronSharpensIron wrote: |
Because of the whoopin we are takin in Iraq and Afhganistan, we are no longer the dominant force previously thought of by people around the world-we have been humbled- and can no longer make demands like we could B4. |
I keep seeing this defeatist mantra that we are somehow losing in Iraq. Last time I checked, every single engagement we have been involved in we have won. The only 'whoopin' our soldiers seem to be getting is by those pacifist defeatist blame America first crowd that are pretty much clueless on what exactly we are up against here. If you want to surrender... raise the white flag and pull our soldiers out and allow common everyday-run-of-the-mill thugs to claim victory... have at it. However, if you truly want to se Iraq become a successful democracy on the Arabian Peninsula, then at least have the intellectual honesty to at least admit that we still have the ability to win these engagements when and where we choose. I’m sure, after spending 20 plus years I the Army, you have heard the phrase… ‘if you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem’. You can answer which side you fall in on here…
Perhaps you could quantify 'whoopin' for us ISI so we all know exactly what a whoopin looks like when you say we are getting one.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
I would argue that invading Iraq has been the biggest mistake and the worst thing for the United States that has happened for a long time. |
I disagree...it was (and is) absolutely the RIGHT thing to do if you really mean to spread peace and prosperity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no representative democracy has ever declared war on another...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Disbanding the Iraqi military, |
agree that was dumb...as was firing all the Baathist (which were all the civil servants since you had to be a Baathist under Sadaam to get a good job) was retarded.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
ignoring the Pentagon's recommendations on troop levels, etc.: Sad when stupidity supercedes what's good for the nation. |
again, I agree...WWII we had 4 million men and women in uniform for the duration....we're trying to do this on the cheap and it's never the way to go. We had nearly 400,000 occupying troops in Japan at the end of WWII. Peak troops strength in Iraq was 150,000.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Just a few days ago Iraq had its deadliest day yet of the war... Things are getting worse rather than better. I fear that Iraq is going to end up being a much larger mess than anyone is anticipating. |
That's nothing to what will happen when we leave....here's the deal. It's all about moral will and belief. Our media is creating a defeatist mindset by focusing ONLY on the losses (which happens when there is a violent struggle between two opposing wills)...The victory lies to one with the stronger will. 10000 ding-dongs killing 25 people a day is defeating the most powerful nation on Earth thru media, propoganda, and fear. You think that leaving Iraq will NOT embolden them?
You ever get your lunch money taken by a bully? Did it stop after you gave him the money?
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
Disbanding the Iraqi military, |
agree that was dumb...as was firing all the Baathist (which were all the civil servants since you had to be a Baathist under Sadaam to get a good job) was retarded. |
If you want to find the precident we used in this logic... one word "Denazification".
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
I would argue that invading Iraq has been the biggest mistake and the worst thing for the United States that has happened for a long time. |
I disagree...it was (and is) absolutely the RIGHT thing to do if you really mean to spread peace and prosperity. Correct me if I'm wrong, but no representative democracy has ever declared war on another...
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I'm all for spreading democracy, but the only way to spread democracy using violence is by first completely destroying the country you're attacking and then building it up from scratch. You need to first induce complete and utter suffering and hopelessness in the VAST majority of the population you are attacking, and only then can you resculpt their national identity. This worked in Germany, and it worked in Japan. You have to go whole hog if you're going to spread democracy by the sword.
America is not going whole hog in Iraq, so the prospects of successfully democratizing the country are dubious at best.
| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Disbanding the Iraqi military, |
agree that was dumb...as was firing all the Baathist (which were all the civil servants since you had to be a Baathist under Sadaam to get a good job) was retarded.
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Has every single person involved in that decision been fired yet? Obviously Rummy has, but was Cheney involved in that MASSIVE mistake? Was Pearle? Was Wolfowitz? When people screw up that badly, they need to be fired.
| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
ignoring the Pentagon's recommendations on troop levels, etc.: Sad when stupidity supercedes what's good for the nation. |
again, I agree...WWII we had 4 million men and women in uniform for the duration....we're trying to do this on the cheap and it's never the way to go. We had nearly 400,000 occupying troops in Japan at the end of WWII. Peak troops strength in Iraq was 150,000.
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Part of the problem is that people will only fight if they think the cause is good. The population didn't oppose conscription for World War I, World War II, and Korea because most people believed that war was necessary and just. In Vietnam, the population stood up and said that they weren't going to risk their lives for fighting a voluntary war that was not necessary, and exactly the same thing is happening in Iraq. The population can see quite clearly that the whole motivation behind the Iraq war (Saddam is going to nuke New York, etc.) was a bunch of B.S., so of course support is going soft. How can you get an all volunteer army to want to risk their lives for a cause that isn't very well-motivated?
| Pondering wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: |
Just a few days ago Iraq had its deadliest day yet of the war... Things are getting worse rather than better. I fear that Iraq is going to end up being a much larger mess than anyone is anticipating. |
That's nothing to what will happen when we leave.
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I agree that Iraq will turn into a bloodbath as soon as the U.S. leaves, but that's not really the issue here. As a matter of foreign policy, we don't actually care how many foreigners die. What we care about is how badly damaged U.S. power is. If America stays in Iraq, there is a real danger of American power eroding. If America pulls out of Iraq, the ensuing civil war could be so devastating for the entire Middle East, that it could be a comparatively massive gain for American power.
| Pondering wrote: |
...here's the deal. It's all about moral will and belief. Our media is creating a defeatist mindset by focusing ONLY on the losses (which happens when there is a violent struggle between two opposing wills)...The victory lies to one with the stronger will. 10000 ding-dongs killing 25 people a day is defeating the most powerful nation on Earth thru media, propoganda, and fear. You think that leaving Iraq will NOT embolden them?
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It's not entirely clear to me what would happen if America left. Yes, of course the Islamists would declare victory, and that is bad, but they're ALREADY declaring victory in Iraq just like they did in Lebanon. The real issue is whether or not they'll be able to capitalize on their 'win'. If the entire Middle East immediately descends into chaos after America pulls out and the ensuing war blasts the region back into the stone age, then it won't much matter if the Islamists declared victory in Iraq or not.
| Pondering wrote: |
You ever get your lunch money taken by a bully? Did it stop after you gave him the money? |
Nope, but if it would have, you can bet I would have given him some 'negative feedback' so that it wouldn't happen again.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: |
You ever get your lunch money taken by a bully? Did it stop after you gave him the money? |
Nope, but if it would have, you can bet I would have given him some 'negative feedback' so that it wouldn't happen again. |
OK...I know funny and that's a joke...but that's kinda my point...by "negative feedback" what do you mean? Tell your mom? Tell a teacher? Engage in a discussion to convert him from the error of his ways? In the first two cases, you'd appeal to authority from someone that could make it stop (hint: That's the West in our little analogy  ...in the last case, you end up with a black eye and no lunch money.
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: |
Disbanding the Iraqi military, |
agree that was dumb...as was firing all the Baathist (which were all the civil servants since you had to be a Baathist under Sadaam to get a good job) was retarded. |
If you want to find the precident we used in this logic... one word "Denazification". |
Fair point, but I believe alot of the Nazi's were vetted and then put back to work rebuilding the country...not so much in Iraq although it did finally get underway...however, nature abhores a vacuum and all that jazz....it may have come too little too late.
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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