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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Surfer, have you only read my first two points and then stopped? You need to at least read my comments on the Sermon on the Mount. |
Jesus came to.... 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.
Now, since the Bible says that the Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14), anything spiritual, also has to manifest itself in the physical life.
Christ's Sermon on the Mount, was to educate people as to the true depth of God's Law.
Not merely to look at the surface meaning only.
Yes, Jesus is our sabbath....and that spiritual rest in Jesus, will manifest itself in keeping the 7th day Holy, just as God said to do.
Jesus rested in His Father's care while on this earth, yet, Jesus observed the 7th day sabbath as well....showing His faith, by works of Righteousness.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2272
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | Jesus came to.... 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.
Now, since the Bible says that the Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14), anything spiritual, also has to manifest itself in the physical life.
Christ's Sermon on the Mount, was to educate people as to the true depth of God's Law.
Not merely to look at the surface meaning only. |
True indeed! But you have not addressed the fact that Jesus did not limit His educating of the people to the 10 commandments only, but He magnified ALL of the law and made it ALL honorable, including those laws which Adventists dishonor by writing them off as "the Mosaic" laws. What do you say to this?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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i have a lot in common with the catholics...and they have many biblical doctrines...
1. they and i believe solidly in the virgin birth...
2. we agree on who the CHRIST is....
3. we agree on HIM being crucified, buried, and resurrected....
4. we agree there is no other sacrifice for sin...
in and of itself having things in common with the catholics doesn't make anything bad...for it would seem to depend on what the things are.... |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | Jesus came to.... 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.
Now, since the Bible says that the Law is spiritual (Romans 7:14), anything spiritual, also has to manifest itself in the physical life.
Christ's Sermon on the Mount, was to educate people as to the true depth of God's Law.
Not merely to look at the surface meaning only. |
True indeed! But you have not addressed the fact that Jesus did not limit His educating of the people to the 10 commandments only, but He magnified ALL of the law and made it ALL honorable, including those laws which Adventists dishonor by writing them off as "the Mosaic" laws. What do you say to this? |
How could Christ have made some of God's laws honorable, when HE knew some, were soon to be abolished.....such as the Sacrifical system, contained in the Law of Moses ?
Did you never notice that in the whole life of Jesus while He was on this earth, that HE never took part in the Sacrificial Laws ?
What do you read here ?
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Why would 'Jesus honor and magnify', certain Laws that were to be abolished ?
The 'Sermon on the Mount', was where Jesus showed that HE magnified the Law, making it honorable.
And which Law was that ?
ANSWER: The 10 commandments, were the examples used.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2272
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Why would 'Jesus honor and magnify', certain Laws that were to be abolished ? |
Excellent question! Jesus honored and magnified the law to show that it is a standard so high and so holy that a man cannot meet the requirements, no matter how good he is. Israel, like Adventists in our day, had deluded themselves into thinking they could actually fulfill God's standard of righteousness. Like Adventists, they kept the laws that were convenient for them, made a show of their outward holiness in keeping them, and the ones that were not convenient, they dismissed or explained away. By magnifying the law, the prophet meant Jesus would show Israel the same lesson that Adventists choose to forget: that the whole law, not just 10 of them, must be kept to gain eternal life. And not in its most lax sense, but to its full extent.
| Silver Surfer wrote: | The 'Sermon on the Mount', was where Jesus showed that HE magnified the Law, making it honorable.
And which Law was that ?
ANSWER: The 10 commandments, were the examples used. |
NO! THAT'S NOT THE WHOLE ANSWER!
This is exactly what I was talking about above! Yes, Jesus cites two examples from the 10 commandments. But you must read the rest! Then Jesus continues in Matt 5:
| Quote: | 33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. |
Thou shalt not forswear yourself? I checked. That's not in the Big 10. Where did Jesus get this?
Numbers 30: | Quote: | | 2If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. |
I checked the context. Nope. It's not a list of the Big 10. Know who said it? Moses! This is a commandment that Adventists try to dismiss as a "Mosaic" law. Jesus did not recognize that distinction!
Jesus continues: | Quote: |
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. |
I don't recall this being one of the Big 10 either.
Exodus 21: | Quote: |
22If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
26And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake. |
What? Jesus is quoting from a law regarding disorderly conduct and incidental injury to pregnant women and unborn children?
Lev 24:
| Quote: | 19And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
20Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again. |
A law regarding injuring others?
Deut 19:
| Quote: | 16If a false witness rise up against any man to testify against him that which is wrong;
17Then both the men, between whom the controversy is, shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges, which shall be in those days;
18And the judges shall make diligent inquisition: and, behold, if the witness be a false witness, and hath testified falsely against his brother;
19Then shall ye do unto him, as he had thought to have done unto his brother: so shalt thou put the evil away from among you.
20And those which remain shall hear, and fear, and shall henceforth commit no more any such evil among you.
21And thine eye shall not pity; but life shall go for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. |
A law against framing someone for a crime they didn't commit?
I don't find any of these in the Big 10.
| Quote: | 43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? . |
Love your neighbor? Where is that?
Leviticus 19:18
| Quote: | | Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. |
Clearly, Jesus has not at all restricted His discussion here to the 10 commandments. He has chosen several examples, from various places in the books of Moses, which Israel in His generation was in the habit of keeping only in their most lax sense. He is putting them in remembrance that under the law, they were liable to go the whole 9 yards - to keep these laws to their fullest extent.
Brother Surfer, if you teach that God will use the law as a measuring stick on the day of Judgement, and how well you kept it will determine whether you enter into eternal life, you better make sure you keep all the laws that Jesus says you have to keep! Ten is not good enough! You cannot hold to ten and explain away the others Jesus said you must keep!
The scripture states it plainly. If you're not fooling me, I certainly doubt you're fooling God. What do you say to this?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 6:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Why would 'Jesus honor and magnify', certain Laws that were to be abolished ? |
Excellent question! Jesus honored and magnified the law to show that it is a standard so high and so holy that a man cannot meet the requirements, no matter how good he is. |
THEN WHY did Jesus Christ tell men/women to keep the commandments ?
John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Jesus Christ set forth the ONLY thing that shows love for HIMSELF.....
"IF..you love me, keep my commandments", John 14:15).
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2272
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:08 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | THEN WHY did Jesus Christ tell men/women to keep the commandments ? |
You are making the assumption that the commandments Jesus referred to in John 14 and 15 are the law of the old covenant.
You have still not addressed what I asked you about regarding the Sermon on the Mount. Please read that section of my last post. Do not stop reading after the first paragraph. What do you say to these things?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu May 31, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | THEN WHY did Jesus Christ tell men/women to keep the commandments ? |
You are making the assumption that the commandments Jesus referred to in John 14 and 15 are the law of the old covenant. |
Of course, all ten commandments of the OT are in the NT.
God does NOT change the truth, or anything He made perfect, why would He ?
| Quote: |
You have still not addressed what I asked you about regarding the Sermon on the Mount. Please read that section of my last post. Do not stop reading after the first paragraph. What do you say to these things? |
| Quote: | Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:12 am Post subject:
Clearly, Jesus has not at all restricted His discussion here to the 10 commandments. He has chosen several examples, from various places in the books of Moses, which Israel in His generation was in the habit of keeping only in their most lax sense. He is putting them in remembrance that under the law, they were liable to go the whole 9 yards - to keep these laws to their fullest extent.
Brother Surfer, if you teach that God will use the law as a measuring stick on the day of Judgement, and how well you kept it will determine whether you enter into eternal life, you better make sure you keep all the laws that Jesus says you have to keep! Ten is not good enough! You cannot hold to ten and explain away the others Jesus said you must keep! |
OK, if you want to get into details, Let's go.
Those who are eating Pork products will be destroyed when the Lord Jesus comes again.....
Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.
_________________
In other words, there are things in the OT that NEED to be looked at, that are not in the NT.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2272
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: |
OK, if you want to get into details, Let's go.
Those who are eating Pork products will be destroyed when the Lord Jesus comes again.....
_________________
In other words, there are things in the OT that NEED to be looked at, that are not in the NT. |
There ya go, my friend. Confession is good for the soul.
Now, I think you and your Adventists are in a predicament. You and others of your Adventist friends have acknowleged on this board that it is not not only the 10 commandments that you believe Christians are responsible to keep, but others. However, you teach that some of the law, namely the sacrificial laws, were fulfilled and passed away through the redemptive work of Jesus Christ.
But Jesus said none of the law would pass away until it all did. And I know there are many laws in the old testament which are not even sacrificial that I doubt most Adventists are keeping. You yourself have told us that you believe the Bible teaches that no one who is breaking any law will be allowed into God's kingdom.
And it will not suffice to claim ignorance and say you were committing no "known sin". You have acknowleged that the requirements go beyond just the Big 10, and you have no doubt often read where Jesus plainly stated that not one jot nor tittle would pass away. And I have pointed out, and you have acknowleged that Jesus included more than just the 10 commendments in His sermon on the Mount, so you know Jesus meant all of the law, not just the Big 10 when He said "not one jot or tittle shall pass..."
It is a very holy and righteous standard, is it not, brother Surfer? And it makes all of us, you included, guilty as transgressors. To say otherwise would be to trivialize the very holiness of God and of His law. It is truly a law of sin and death to us. Who shall deliver us from this body of death?
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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That is why the study of the whole Bible is SO IMPORTANT.
But, then again, God only holds us responsible for what we know is wrong according to Scripture....yet we must also always be advancing in Biblical knowledge. too.
In other words, If we stop making advances in knowledge of the Scriptures, we are in trouble.
And also, we must be 'doers' of whatever the Bible says to do......
James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | And it gets better yet!
The figure 144,000 relates to the description of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21. It is described as being "foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."
A cube 12,000 furlongs on a side. The area of one face would be 144,000,000 square furlongs.
This city is identified plainly in Rev 21 when the angel said to John "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." He then showed him the New Jerusalem. We all pretty much agree on who the bride of Christ is, right? Sorry, dispensationalists, the New Jerusalem is not a literal city that will orbit the earth in space.
The bride of Christ is depicted as a city because Jerusalem in Israel was where the temple was in the old testament, and the temple is where the presence of God Himself dwelt. Now look what He says in Revelation 21:
| Quote: | | "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." |
We believers are where the presence of God now dwells and that is why we are His holy city and His temple. John writing that God had shown him that the church was the true fulfillment of Jerusalem, God's Holy City, the location of His temple, where His name and His presence dwells would have been a very remarkable and controversial idea in the 1st century! And in our day, it remains a glorious truth! |
The 144,000 are blood washed Saints who are the remnant of the Seed of Abraham ...whom God has saved unto Himself...12,000 from each of the surviving tribes of Israel...That remnant combined with Spiritual Israel will fulfill God's promise to Abraham to make his seed as the numbers of the stars.
Exd 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit [it] for ever.  |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | And it gets better yet!
The figure 144,000 relates to the description of the New Jerusalem in chapter 21. It is described as being "foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."
A cube 12,000 furlongs on a side. The area of one face would be 144,000,000 square furlongs.
This city is identified plainly in Rev 21 when the angel said to John "Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife." He then showed him the New Jerusalem. We all pretty much agree on who the bride of Christ is, right? Sorry, dispensationalists, the New Jerusalem is not a literal city that will orbit the earth in space.
The bride of Christ is depicted as a city because Jerusalem in Israel was where the temple was in the old testament, and the temple is where the presence of God Himself dwelt. Now look what He says in Revelation 21:
| Quote: | | "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God." |
We believers are where the presence of God now dwells and that is why we are His holy city and His temple. John writing that God had shown him that the church was the true fulfillment of Jerusalem, God's Holy City, the location of His temple, where His name and His presence dwells would have been a very remarkable and controversial idea in the 1st century! And in our day, it remains a glorious truth! |
The 144,000 are blood washed Saints who are the remnant of the Seed of Abraham ...whom God has saved unto Himself...12,000 from each of the surviving tribes of Israel...That remnant combined with Spiritual Israel will fulfill God's promise to Abraham to make his seed as the numbers of the stars.
Exd 32:13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit [it] for ever. 8-) |
Just remember that Revelation makes 'spiritual' applications, when refering to Israel.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: |
Just remember that Revelation makes 'spiritual' applications, when refering to Israel. |
Is it really that hard for you to see that REV has a Spiritual and a Natural or literal denotation? |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: |
Just remember that Revelation makes 'spiritual' applications, when refering to Israel. |
Is it really that hard for you to see that REV has a Spiritual and a Natural or literal denotation? 8-) |
Once the prophecy of God's rejection of National Israel (Daniel 9:24-27 & Matthew 21:33-46).....there is nowhere in the Bible where God accepted the Nation of Israel back into His favor.
God accepts individual of National Israel.....Yes.
But, the Nation of Israel, itself.....No.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | StElsewhere wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: |
Just remember that Revelation makes 'spiritual' applications, when refering to Israel. |
Is it really that hard for you to see that REV has a Spiritual and a Natural or literal denotation? |
Once the prophecy of God's rejection of National Israel (Daniel 9:24-27 & Matthew 21:33-46).....there is nowhere in the Bible where God accepted the Nation of Israel back into His favor.
God accepts individual of National Israel.....Yes.
But, the Nation of Israel, itself.....No. |
I agree 100%! |
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