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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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 Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
You mean the fossil record as proposed by Darwin has been discovered? |
Yes, Trinity, it most certainly has. |
No P.. it hasn't. The gradualistic changes as predicted by Darwin are not evident. This was the reason Gould had to develop Punk-Eeek.
| Quote: | | So you're saying this is some kind of massive fluke? Evolution is a big lie, but it somehow keeps on giving wonderful things that are true, but creationism is true, but it never gives anything useful? |
What has ToE predicted... that has come true? Written prediction... and then some years later a a discovery of this prediction. No... ToE has gotten really good at shooting... and then going over and drawing a bullseye around it... not the other way around.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
What has ToE predicted... that has come true? Written prediction... and then some years later a a discovery of this prediction. No... ToE has gotten really good at shooting... and then going over and drawing a bullseye around it... not the other way around. |
Trinity, it has predicted LOTS of things that come true all the time. Almost all genetic research, drug research, and medical research is based on it.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity, it has predicted LOTS of things that come true all the time. Almost all genetic research, drug research, and medical research is based on it. |
On what? Things change? Come on P... there is really no predictive utility in that I can see.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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revmattchoo.com
House Cat
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Sat Nov 04, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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I would have to say that the cure for cancer would be the defeat of death, which was accomplished in the resurrection of Jesus the Christ. Oh, and yes I am one who believes that God created the heavens and the earth, without using evolution.
_________________
“Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.” - C.S. Lewis
“Has this world been so kind to you that you should leave with regret? There are better things ahead than any we leave behind.” - C.S. Lewis |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| revmattchoo.com wrote: | | I would have to say that the cure for cancer would be the defeat of death, which was accomplished in the resurrection of Jesus the Christ. Oh, and yes I am one who believes that God created the heavens and the earth, without using evolution. |
Well if you can do that with your knowledge of creationism and demonstrate how other can do that, repeatability, then sure you're on to something; however, don't even claim you can do it. You just made something up and said it was going to take care of the impossibility of your statement magically and in the future, convenient.
Also, WHAT?
Cancer is not the most common means of death in the world let alone the only. The leading cause of death in the US is heart disease, and outside of the us it is a panoply of other things that kill you before you're old enough for cancer.
There's nothing wrong with believing in magic if you can do magic, or if you can have it done for you in a useful fashion.
See http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/ for info on the power of prayer to accomplish the impossible or even the possible and simply not happening when you need it.
Quoted from Wikipedia, "The psychiatrist and philosopher Karl Jaspers was the first to define the three main criteria for a belief to be considered delusional in his book General Psychopathology. These criteria are:
1. certainty (held with absolute conviction)
2. incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
3. impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)
_________________
"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:40 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity, it has predicted LOTS of things that come true all the time. Almost all genetic research, drug research, and medical research is based on it. |
On what? Things change? Come on P... there is really no predictive utility in that I can see. |
No, the predictions are made based on the ASSUMPTION that evolution is true. We have practically no idea how drugs work in the human body. It's not like we have computer simulations that can predict whether or not a new drug will cure some disease. So we have to test these drugs. But you don't want to test drugs on humans because you might kill them. So what do you do?
You go to Charles Darwin and he says that there are plenty of species out there that are closely related to us, so why not test the drugs on them instead?
So you assume that ToE is true, and based on that assumption you start testing the drugs on chimps and pigs and rats and whatever, because if we all evolved from common ancestors, then their cells and organs and bodies should be sufficiently similar to us so that the test results will carry over to humans.
If you predicate your testing on an assumption, and then the tests end up working out, that suggests that the assumption is true. This is the way science works.
And the tests done predicated on the assumption that ToE is true have been WILDLY successful, thereby suggesting that ToE is true.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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revmattchoo.com
House Cat
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 165
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| Posted: Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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First off, what is your view of the Bible? Is it reliable? Is it totally true, or only parts?
Also, do you believe that supernatural things can occur?
Also, I have not come up with this. It is in the Bible.
Also, the defeat of death does not just cover cancer. I just noticed that there was some discussion about cancer and so I thought I would use that as an example.
Also, the miraculous in the Bible is not magic, it is miraculous. The defeat of death is not some magical thing that God did to make us feel better and have warm fuzzies. This is serious stuff. God could have left us in our sins, only to experience physical and spiritual death.
Also, people still die at this time. The resurrection of people has not yet occurred. If it has, then I have missed seeing bodies floating into the air. The resurrection of the Messiah was the victory over death, as well as proof that we, the followers of God, will be resurrected as well. I'm not saying that the cure for death is some medicine or herb for right now to let us live for hundreds of years. The only cure for death is the death and resurrection of the Messiah, Jesus. That is what is the cure, it is the only cure, it can only be the cure.
_________________
“Experience: that most brutal of teachers. But you learn, my God do you learn.” - C.S. Lewis
“Has this world been so kind to you that you should leave with regret? There are better things ahead than any we leave behind.” - C.S. Lewis |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| revmattchoo.com wrote: | | The only cure for death is the death and resurrection of the Messiah, Jesus. That is what is the cure, it is the only cure, it can only be the cure. |
First off, curing death if your shtick, not mine.
Secondly, well that's useless.
I'm focused on closer more practical goals; about which, you said nothing.
| revmattchoo.com wrote: | | I'm not saying that the cure for death is some medicine or herb for right now to let us live for hundreds of years. |
Living for hundreds of years is pretty pointless if Alzheimer's makes you a walking Schiavo, and why shouldn't we try and find some medicine or herb that would improve the lives we're already living?
We don't know when Jesus is going to beam us up, so we might as well try and improve our lot until that Special Moment with Jesus happens, and with that as the goal, Evolution is scoring points and Creationism isn't even playing the game.
_________________
"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:09 am Post subject: |
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| ekspiulo wrote: | | Evolution is scoring points and Creationism isn't even playing the game. |
I'm wondering here... what game is it that creationism isn't platiny... or in your opinioniated objections here... preventing you or evolution from playing? Precisely... no generalities... exactly what are you talking about? Exactly... with citations... what is creationism stopping here... or proposes that we stop doing that will precent the advancement of science?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | No, the predictions are made based on the ASSUMPTION that evolution is true. We have practically no idea how drugs work in the human body. It's not like we have computer simulations that can predict whether or not a new drug will cure some disease. So we have to test these drugs. But you don't want to test drugs on humans because you might kill them. So what do you do?
You go to Charles Darwin and he says that there are plenty of species out there that are closely related to us, so why not test the drugs on them instead?
So you assume that ToE is true, and based on that assumption you *stinkie poo* testing the drugs on chimps and pigs and rats and whatever, because if we all evolved from common ancestors, then their cells and organs and bodies should be sufficiently similar to us so that the test results will carry over to humans.
If you predicate your testing on an assumption, and then the tests end up working out, that suggests that the assumption is true. This is the way science works.
And the tests done predicated on the assumption that ToE is true have been WILDLY successful, thereby suggesting that ToE is true. |
So... none of these results you speak of could not have been the result of a common designer who created using biology as His means to an end? Does ToE discount that? Or is micro-evolutionary changes over eons of time the only possibility here?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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nakhash
House Cat
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 8:08 am Post subject: |
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At this point, you're invoking a deceptive God, who provides positive results for acting on information gleaned from accepting evolutionary theory. So either you're calling God a liar, or you're demonstrating that God wants you to accept evolutionary theory.
So which is it? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | At this point, you're invoking a deceptive God, who provides positive results for acting on information gleaned from accepting evolutionary theory. |
How so? Where did God ever tell us that He did not incorporate changes in His creation as a part of His creating said creation?
| Quote: |
So either you're calling God a liar, or you're demonstrating that God wants you to accept evolutionary theory. |
I think you are off on both counts and I've seen nothing from Trin to indicate that such wild conclusions are warranted. I smell fish.... red herring I think.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | nakash wrote: | | At this point, you're invoking a deceptive God, who provides positive results for acting on information gleaned from accepting evolutionary theory. |
How so? Where did God ever tell us that He did not incorporate changes in His creation as a part of His creating said creation?
| Quote: |
So either you're calling God a liar, or you're demonstrating that God wants you to accept evolutionary theory. |
I think you are off on both counts and I've seen nothing from Trin to indicate that such wild conclusions are warranted. I smell fish.... red herring I think. |
I call it a strawman... but hey... he is the paleontologist that we all should listen too.  I tried engaging this fella before. He distorted a reply, set up another strawman, and then lied about it.
I got better things to do then bother with his drivel...
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
So... none of these results you speak of could not have been the result of a common designer who created using biology as His means to an end? Does ToE discount that? Or is micro-evolutionary changes over eons of time the only possibility here? |
My point is that evolution is a scientific theory with evidence supporting it. It makes all sorts of predictions such as the idea that if we test our drugs on creatures which are closely related to us, then those tests will tell us if the drugs will work on us. And guess what... the predictions made based on the assumption that ToE is true are highly accurate.
Find me just one example of scientists making true predictions based on ID being true...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 19, 2006 9:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Find me just one example of scientists making true predictions based on ID being true... |
P123...
How does the idea that life was intelligently designed negate the evidence that certain species are similar?
Evolution says that all life evolved from the same source, pretty much. Intelligent design says that life was designed, part of the intelligence in that design was the use of a master blueprint for life. Certain species are similar? Of course they are, they were designed to be.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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