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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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 Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 1:33 am Post subject: When "Creation Science" develops the cure for canc |
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What use is "creation science?"
When I say "you people" I mean everyone that responds to this post saying something about the irrelevance of evolution to the process of modern medicine.
What is the difference between a real fact and a theory that can be used to produce real world results? You people act like modern medicine which would be taken as whole-sale divine miracle by the authors of the bible just started happening one day and has continued on ever since with out any intervention of the Scientific Method.
Evolution is patently critical to all of modern medicine. When reading the bible produces a cancer treatment that is more effective than reading the newspaper, your creation "science" will have one laurel to rest on while it is being weighed against all of modern medicines achievements.
How do you think doctors concluded it testing drugs and treatments on mice would work passably as a fitness test for human use?
How do you think it was determined that chimpanzees are better test animals than mice, and other species of monkey?
Some poor intern, we'll call him Noah, must have had to test a few of every animal in the world with an assortment of chemicals to see if they reacted similarly to humans. That is awful; poor Noah! 
But Noah, Wait! There is a solution, the Theory of Evolution predicts chimpanzees will have high genetic similarity to humans. Hooray for Noah! 
I see the Theory of Evolution being used to isolate the genetic information necessary to create a vaccine for Alzheimer's disease. Not one honest medical doctors needs the approval of any one of you people. What evidence do you have that we should abandon the path we're on in favor of your useless idiot delusions of Creation?
_________________
"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:34 am Post subject: Re: When "Creation Science" develops the cure for |
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| ekspiulo wrote: |
How do you think doctors concluded it testing drugs and treatments on mice would work passably as a fitness test for human use?
How do you think it was determined that chimpanzees are better test animals than mice, and other species of monkey? |
I know the answer!
These are direct predictions made by the theory of evolution. The prediction is that animals which are closer to us on the evolutionary tree are more biochemically similar to us than other creatures, so drugs that work on them will also work on us. This prediction is almost always correct.
There are plenty of other examples. An interesting one was the jungle warfare in Southeast Asia during WWII. The Japanese did MUCH better than the British. Why? Because the British war effort ground to a halt when their supply lines of tea and crumpets stopped getting through. The Japanese, on the other hand, lived by a philosophy of "watch what the monkies in the trees eat, and copy them". They understood that anything eaten by monkies is edible by us. How did they know this? Because it was predicted by Darwin's theory. And it was right, and they thrived in the jungle with a massive advantage over the British.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
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Come on creationists, I'm calling you out. If any deity created anything and cares whether or not we believe it did, it will provide some reason for us to think that way.
Given that evolution is so completely and wholly more convincing than intelligent design, this persuasion will have to be in kind. That is the persuasive argument for ID will have to be not philosophical or geological but of medical utility. Intelligent design must prove medically useful because when you get down to it no one gives a *Holy Censor, Batman* about the origin of life when they're faced with the end of their own.
Evolution fueled medicine is staving off death so You People can keep pretending it isn't real in to your 90s instead of into your 40s.
By intelligent design I do not mean Christianity or any other specific religion, I mean Intelligent Design, the supposed science, and general idea.
Speaking only pragmatically, why should we believe in Intelligent Design?
_________________
"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| ekspiulo wrote: | | Come on creationists, I'm calling you out. If any deity created anything and cares whether or not we believe it did, it will provide some reason for us to think that way. |
You just answered you own quesition whether you realized it or not.
| Quote: | | Given that evolution is so completely and wholly more convincing than intelligent design, this persuasion will have to be in kind. |
 Oh boy... here we go... define evolution please.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Oh boy... here we go... define evolution please. |
hahaha
Oh boy. . . no we don't
I mean the Theory of Evolution. I don't intend to debate anything that hinged on any exact definition of the Theory of Evolution. Everyone knows what evolution is enough to participate in this thread because a postulate of this thread is that the Theory of Evolution is widely accepted, used, and to a lesser extend widely understood. This isn't about the Theory of Evolution; there are plenty of threads about that. This is about Intelligent Design and Creationism. If you can't accept that premise for this thread, good bye.
_________________
"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject: |
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| ekspiulo wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Oh boy... here we go... define evolution please. |
hahaha
Oh boy. . . no we don't
I mean the Theory of Evolution. I don't intend to debate anything that hinged on any exact definition of the Theory of Evolution. Everyone knows what evolution is enough to participate in this thread because a postulate of this thread is that the Theory of Evolution is widely accepted, used, and to a lesser extend widely understood. This isn't about the Theory of Evolution; there are plenty of threads about that. This is about Intelligent Design and Creationism. If you can't accept that premise for this thread, good bye. |
Oh... I see how we get to play. You can say what you unt to 'bout Christians belief in God and His creating process... but when challenged on your own beliefs... well, that is just 'out of bounds'.
Good-bye indeed.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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nakhash
House Cat
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:57 am Post subject: |
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No, no, the truth is that evolutionary theory can provide us with solutions to serious medical problems, such as cancer, disease epidemics, congenital disorders, etc. Creationism gives one very ineffective solution: pray harder.
Prayer doesn't stop the AIDS pandemic. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:12 am Post subject: |
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| nakhash wrote: | No, no, the truth is that evolutionary theory can provide us with solutions to serious medical problems, such as cancer, disease epidemics, congenital disorders, etc. Creationism gives one very ineffective solution: pray harder.
Prayer doesn't stop the AIDS pandemic. |
If anything, it makes it worse for at least two reasons:
1. Instead of praying, people could be doing more productive things to stop the spread of AIDS.
2. Religion is one of the major mechanisms helping AIDS to spread. The Catholic church tells people not to use condoms, which helps the spread, and all of the African religions associate AIDS with breaking taboos, thereby ignoring the real cause, which, if recognized could be used to educate them and stop the spread.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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nakhash
House Cat
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | 2. Religion is one of the major mechanisms helping AIDS to spread. The Catholic church tells people not to use condoms, which helps the spread, and all of the African religions associate AIDS with breaking taboos, thereby ignoring the real cause, which, if recognized could be used to educate them and stop the spread. |
Exactly.
Additionally, AIDS hopped over from chimps twice. This means that human-chimp interactions (probably associated with bushmeat) can result in frequent crossover events. This means we need to be careful about our interactions with wild primates. This was determined using phylogenetic analysis, which is a product of evolutionary theory. Current HIV research is built on evolutionary theory, and all important breakthroughs pertaining to HIV have come from evolutionary studies. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:01 pm Post subject: |
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| nakhash wrote: | | No, no, the truth is that evolutionary theory can provide us with solutions to serious medical problems, such as cancer, |
And I see cancer has been cured because of ToE... yea?
| Quote: | | disease epidemics, |
And we no longer have epidemics?
| Quote: | | congenital disorders, |
Same question?
| Quote: | | Creationism gives one very ineffective solution: pray harder. |
Hmmmm.... perhaps you ought to tell us all what creationism means then... since you have no idea what The Theory of Evolution states...
| Quote: | | Prayer doesn't stop the AIDS pandemic. |
Well, if we would all follow God's word... it would stop... now wouldn't it!?!?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Well, if we would all follow God's word... it would stop... now wouldn't it!?!? |
What makes you say this? There are plenty of ways to get infected with AIDS which don't include sinful behavior.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
Well, if we would all follow God's word... it would stop... now wouldn't it!?!? |
What makes you say this? There are plenty of ways to get infected with AIDS which don't include sinful behavior. |
Really? Save a blood transfusion... which hardly ever happens anymore... please... proceed. How?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Being born with HIV.
Getting a tattoo with an infected needle.
Marrying someone who doesn't know they have HIV.
Actively hostile intent, like people that have HIV intentionally spreading it.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 6:54 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Being born with HIV. |
All we are doing here is pushing the violation of God's word... realistically... back to the parent.
| Quote: | | Getting a tattoo with an infected needle. |
Raises a lot of questions... but... OK.
| Quote: | | Marrying someone who doesn't know they have HIV. |
And how would they not know they had HIV? Sounds to me like a behavioral issue once again.
| Quote: | | Actively hostile intent, like people that have HIV intentionally spreading it. |
Hostile intent is not sinful?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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nakhash
House Cat
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | And I see cancer has been cured because of ToE... yea? |
Studies of developmental genetics based on implications of evolutionary theory have come up with some very important leads. Gene phylogenies, for example, have been critical in finding a number of genes implicated in certain kinds of cancer.
| Quote: | | And we no longer have epidemics? |
Phylogenetic studies of potential epidemics have resulted in improved responses to potential epidemic threats. There have been a number of potentially dangerous viruses recently which have been tracked down and stopped at the source due to phylogenetic analysis.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | congenital disorders, |
Same question? |
Depends on the congenital disorder. We're coming a lot closer to finding the source of a number of these, and this is generally due to experimental studies of developmental anomalies in other vertebrates, and similarities between orthologous genes can only be addressed in an evolutionary framework. Additionally, there have been a few gene therapy treatments under study that required some aspect of evolutionary biology at some point in their development.
| Quote: | | Hmmmm.... perhaps you ought to tell us all what creationism means then... since you have no idea what The Theory of Evolution states... |
I probably have a much better idea of what evolution states than you'll ever have.
| Quote: | | Quote: | | Prayer doesn't stop the AIDS pandemic. |
Well, if we would all follow God's word... it would stop... now wouldn't it!?!? |
No. God tells us to treat diseases by cutting up pigeons and placing them on the patient so as to draw out the illness. This is hardly as effective as antiretrovirals. |
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