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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2551
Location: Salem Oregon
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 Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 9:39 am Post subject: What about the transgendered? |
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Although many people insist that the gay fraternity should include the transgendered there are distinctions that separate them into different groups. One crossdresser is not the same as any other crossdresser though and a person could be in both groups even though that is not the usual case. Far more cross dressers are straight sexually than gay.
Aside from the only mention of it is in Deuteronomy22 there is nothing else in scripture that says anything about crossdressing. Can one lump cross dressing in with Homosexuality?
What about the transexuals those who feel that they have to change sex? Are they to be considered as being a birth defect or as willful violators of God's law?
Anyone care to conjecture? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7662
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: Re: What about the transgendered? |
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| dim12trav wrote: | Although many people insist that the gay fraternity should include the transgendered there are distinctions that separate them into different groups. One crossdresser is not the same as any other crossdresser though and a person could be in both groups even though that is not the usual case. Far more cross dressers are straight sexually than gay.
Aside from the only mention of it is in Deuteronomy22 there is nothing else in scripture that says anything about crossdressing. Can one lump cross dressing in with Homosexuality?
What about the transexuals those who feel that they have to change sex? Are they to be considered as being a birth defect or as willful violators of God's law?
Anyone care to conjecture? |
As far as I can tell, cross-dressing is fine by the Bible, especially since as you say most cross-dressers aren't even gay.
Homosexuality is clearly a sin, but transgendered people are an interesting case. Where in the Bible does it say that you can't get a sex change operation?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:45 am Post subject: Re: What about the transgendered? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | dim12trav wrote: | Although many people insist that the gay fraternity should include the transgendered there are distinctions that separate them into different groups. One crossdresser is not the same as any other crossdresser though and a person could be in both groups even though that is not the usual case. Far more cross dressers are straight sexually than gay.
Aside from the only mention of it is in Deuteronomy22 there is nothing else in scripture that says anything about crossdressing. Can one lump cross dressing in with Homosexuality?
What about the transexuals those who feel that they have to change sex? Are they to be considered as being a birth defect or as willful violators of God's law?
Anyone care to conjecture? |
As far as I can tell, cross-dressing is fine by the Bible, especially since as you say most cross-dressers aren't even gay.
Homosexuality is clearly a sin, but transgendered people are an interesting case. Where in the Bible does it say that you can't get a sex change operation? |
How can you conclude that cross dressing is fine by the bible if it's prohibited in the bible? Personall, based on my view of the bible, it's not a sin. However, based on the motto, "the bible says it, I believe", it is prohibited. Also, the bible condemns certain forms of homosexuality, just as it condems certain heterosexual forms of sex. It says nothing about prohibiting two people of the same sex in a loving relationship. At least, not blatantly:)
Last edited by summertime on Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:01 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7662
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:49 am Post subject: Re: What about the transgendered? |
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| summertime wrote: |
How can you conclude that cross dressing is fine by the bible if it's prohibited in the bible? Personall, based on my view of the bible, it's not a sin. However, based on the motto, "the bible says it, I believe", it is prohibited. Also, the bible condemns certain forms of homosexuality. It says nothing about prohibiting two people in a loving relationship. |
Ok, if I'm wrong, please give me the chapter and verse where the Bible forbids cross-dressing.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:53 am Post subject: Re: What about the transgendered? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | summertime wrote: |
How can you conclude that cross dressing is fine by the bible if it's prohibited in the bible? Personall, based on my view of the bible, it's not a sin. However, based on the motto, "the bible says it, I believe", it is prohibited. Also, the bible condemns certain forms of homosexuality. It says nothing about prohibiting two people in a loving relationship. |
Ok, if I'm wrong, please give me the chapter and verse where the Bible forbids cross-dressing. |
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
From a previous post, you may have already been made aware of this text. In a sense, you are correct when you say it is fine with cross dressing. It may seem that it is not because I've just quoted chapter and verse to you. However, simply because something is in the bible should not immediately conclude that it is truth for all time. IMHO:) |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7662
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:45 am Post subject: Re: What about the transgendered? |
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| summertime wrote: |
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
From a previous post, you may have already been made aware of this text. In a sense, you are correct when you say it is fine with cross dressing. It may seem that it is not because I've just quoted chapter and verse to you. However, simply because something is in the bible should not immediately conclude that it is truth for all time. IMHO:) |
Thanks; I was not aware of this verse. I guess that I was wrong and that there is a good argument to be made that the Bible says cross-dressing is wrong.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:55 am Post subject: Re: What about the transgendered? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | summertime wrote: |
Deuteronomy 22:5
The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God.
From a previous post, you may have already been made aware of this text. In a sense, you are correct when you say it is fine with cross dressing. It may seem that it is not because I've just quoted chapter and verse to you. However, simply because something is in the bible should not immediately conclude that it is truth for all time. IMHO:) |
Thanks; I was not aware of this verse. I guess that I was wrong and that there is a good argument to be made that the Bible says cross-dressing is wrong. |
If you look at the bible from a different perspective, then I guess you can say it is wrong. In context of the text, I'd say it's not wrong. Live according to YOUR faith.
Last edited by summertime on Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:59 pm Post subject: |
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Or one could simply live according to the Holy Inspired Word of God and quit trying to find ways to circumvent what it says....
Just a thought...
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Or one could simply live according to the Holy Inspired Word of God and quit trying to find ways to circumvent what it says....
Just a thought... |
And that would be YOUR faith! If a mother discovers her child has yet again disobeyed her and blurts out, "How many times did I tell you not to do that? I am going to kill you!", should I interperet her words strictly based on what she said and conclude murder is pending? I'm sure you get my point. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:12 pm Post subject: |
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Actually no, I don't get your point. Perhaps if I lived in a trailor park by a junkyard I might hear a mother say something like that to her kid, but I doubt it.
Other than that the example is nonsensical. We are talking about scripture which specifically states something is an abomination, where is there room for varying interpretation? Either you accept His Word or you reject it. You cannot take only that which agrees with what you like and reject that which doesn't.
Actually you could, but God and scripture are kind of an all or nothing deal - take it for what it is and be happy eternally, or leave it behind completely, and deal with that outcome.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Actually no, I don't get your point. Perhaps if I lived in a trailor park by a junkyard I might hear a mother say something like that to her kid, but I doubt it.
Other than that the example is nonsensical. We are talking about scripture which specifically states something is an abomination, where is there room for varying interpretation? Either you accept His Word or you reject it. You cannot take only that which agrees with what you like and reject that which doesn't.
Actually you could, but God and scripture are kind of an all or nothing deal - take it for what it is and be happy eternally, or leave it behind completely, and deal with that outcome. |
Again, that is YOUR faith perspective. Personally, I have heard people say that they will kill their child or whomever, but it's not meant literally IN THE CONTEXT in which I heard it. So, if you don't get my point, let me explain: Have you ever tried to explain something to someone and, based on your literal words, the listener replied back to you with their take on what you just said? Your response to their repspone is, "No, that's not what I MEANT!" "But that's what you SAID!", the listener replies again. The listener misunderstood your meaning based on the words you used. Just as in my example. In regards to the bible, it does not mean what it says. It means what it means. That is, there's more to just the literal words on the page. Unless, ofcourse, you're a literalist. In which case, what the bible calls an abomination IS an abomination. No questions asked. If your'e not a literalist, and sometimes even if you are, you tend to ask, for example, in regards to the foods the bible calls an abomination, "Why is it an abomination? There has to be a reason. God would not call what "he" created good at one point and then an abomination at a later point. There has to be a reason!" I find, in context, there IS a reason. It does mean what it means based on the words alone. Likewise, if it means what it says (on words alone) then slavery is okay just as Paul implies as he informs how slaves should treat their masters and vice versa. Why? Because it's in the bible in black and white. Just as you are pointing to the Deuteronomy text on cross dressing. "If it's in there, you accept it or deny it!" I deny it! If we should interpret the bible on its words alone then it would also imply that God is not all knowing (in the case of Sodom and Gomorrah prior to sending the angels). God should know already if it's true the cries "he's" heard. My point, again? There is more to interpreting the bible than just reading it at face value. A lot of things in it do not line up with the character of Christ. The O.T. God kills immediately when one disobeys (ie. Onan) while the God of the N.T. has love that is patient, longsuffering, and unconditional. If only Onan had experienced that God. If you don't get my point, maybe you will one day. If Paul thinks one should sift through a prophesied message and take the good of it and discard the bad, why would one not do the same with the bible? If something is inspired of God, does that mean all of it is true and no sifting of the wheat and chaff is needed? Wouldn't a pastor's inspired message mean that everything the pastor says is true also due to the message being inspired? But he's human. He makes mistakes just like us, so I tend to think you'd have to sift the wheat and chaff of the message. One day, you will get it. One day.
Last edited by summertime on Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:34 am; edited 2 times in total |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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The difference is that the new testament expanded our understanding of God and His nature and specific things (food for example) were given as acceptable. that is not true of all things that scripture calls abomination. Homosexual activity is not given to us as acceptable ANYWHERE in scirpture, like wise 'crossdressing'.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | The difference is that the new testament expanded our understanding of God and His nature and specific things (food for example) were given as acceptable. that is not true of all things that scripture calls abomination. Homosexual activity is not given to us as acceptable ANYWHERE in scirpture, like wise 'crossdressing'. |
Again, your faith view. Scripture is opposed to crossdressing for contextual reasons, not for general reasons. Scripture also does not deal with the issue of same sex relationships IN THE CONTEXT of love and commitment. Sure, it condmens it, but ONLY in particular contexts...not all contexts. And if the NT is an expansion of God's character then God is not the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. If the God of the NT would not have killed Onan due to his disobedience (to sleep with his deceased brother's wife mind you. God approved of that?) then the God of the OT, you would think, would respond in the same patient, loving, caring way. The way "he" expects us to act towards our enemies. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6908
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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I disagree. Nowhere in any scripture are same-sex relationships condoned or indicated as being acceptable.
Scripture is very clear that homosexual activity is a sin and one cannot continue to willfully commit known sin and walk with God.
As far as crossdressing goes, I don't really care much one way or the other, although the admonition against it has no context which makes it okay.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2006 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I disagree. Nowhere in any scripture are same-sex relationships condoned or indicated as being acceptable.
Scripture is very clear that homosexual activity is a sin and one cannot continue to willfully commit known sin and walk with God.
As far as crossdressing goes, I don't really care much one way or the other, although the admonition against it has no context which makes it okay. |
The text does not have to come right out and say, "It's okay, Rev!". You were given a brain to exercise and put to use. To think things out with. You were not created to live life like a robot with a programmed chip inside of you directing you what to do without heart, soul, and feelings. Not everything in the world is presented to our faces in the bible. Not every soul that lived is mentioned in the bible. So, you are faced to deal with thing that are not specifically mentioned to help you out. Cats aren't mentioned specifically in the bible, but you know they were created. Just like gays, cats are here!! Every text has a context. It's just not much of an issue for you to dig for it. You probably won't look into some disease until it hits home because THAT'S when it will really mean something to you. The cross dressing texts have context, but, like I said, it does not always tell you it's okay or it's not okay. That's what using your brain is for. Why do you think Abraham questioned God's decision to destroy everyone in Sodom? Abraham had a brain! He questioned God even though it was God he was questioning. Hello!!!!!!!!! Happy is the man that does not condemn himself in the thing that he allows himself to do. If he doubts when he does it, he is sinning. What you deem as sin,according to your interpretation,is sin. Another, being unique in viewpoint as in other things, will not deem it as sin,based on his intepretation. If you and a friend go to the movies and see the same movie and you come out with different views of it: Your friend says it was great while you thought it was terrible. Who is correct? Would that be hard for you to decide since you don't have a book in front of you making your decisions for you? You have to use your brain. Again, why do you think people who justified slavery by pointint to bible texts now no longer have the same view based on the SAME bible texts? They used their brain...and the Holy Spirits was there too because it moves like the wind and is not confined in the pages of a book. Nor is it culturally bound to bible times. It moves where it wills even if a fallible human does not agree with it. |
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