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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: Free Speach and the Left |
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This guy was attacked while giving a speach at Columbia today.
My understanding was that free speach meant hearing all points of view... being tolerant of others... and yet... this guy is practically beat up.
Sad sad sad.
I think we call this hypocrisy that will eventually lead to a facist country.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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HERE is the story.
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Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | My understanding was that free speach meant hearing all points of view... being tolerant of others... and yet... this guy is practically beat up. |
I didn't see anyone chanting about freedom of speech, did you?
And I like how the guy at the end of the video asserted that this was some sort of reflection on "democratic liberals" at large, and that no conservative would act this way. That the 20 (20) people involved somehow reflected on Columbia as a whole.
What makes you think it was only those darned liberals that went up on stage? This guy is an odious enough bastard that I wouldn't be surprised if a few conservatives participated.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | I think we call this hypocrisy that will eventually lead to a facist country. |
What, protests getting out of hand? That thing that's been happening in this country basically since Europeans got here? What are you, retarded?
Also:
“The power of the executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.” - Winston Churchill
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | My understanding was that free speach meant hearing all points of view... being tolerant of others... and yet... this guy is practically beat up. |
I didn't see anyone chanting about freedom of speech, did you? |
Let me get this straight... Columbia is not a bastion of liberalism?
| Quote: | | And I like how the guy at the end of the video asserted that this was some sort of reflection on "democratic liberals" at large, and that no conservative would act this way. That the 20 (20) people involved somehow reflected on Columbia as a whole. |
20 people? Why am I not surprised that is your estimate. Excuses excuses excuses.
| Quote: | | What makes you think it was only those darned liberals that went up on stage? This guy is an odious enough bastard that I wouldn't be surprised if a few conservatives participated. |
Conservatives... at a conservative (republican) event, protesting?
Ghee... you really thought this one through. 
| Quote: | | What, protests getting out of hand? That thing that's been happening in this country basically since Europeans got here? |
Surpressing free speach is OK then?
| Quote: | | What are you, retarded? |
 Um... yea?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:52 pm Post subject: |
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amen fft...and if the gov. can get the courts to rule it illegal for the press to print classified papers...then the gov will make all of it's dirty little secrets classified...torture chambers and all...prisoners held forever with no charges...illegal phone taps...all classified...so you'll never know....
the possibilities for gov control would be endless and all freedom will soon vanish if that happens...with the people powerless to know anything that the gov is doing...classified...
PRINT IT ALL!!!...classified, secret and top secret...no matter what it says...print for all to read... and resist any who challenge the free press...
it is the strongest tool in the hands of any free society...and any gov restrictions that limit what the media can report on that gov...is a gov controlled press and not free...
hear me here...if that is allowed to happen...there will be no stopping the evil and annihilation that will assail upon every right you have...because the assault will be classified...and you won't be allowed to know it is happening till it already has happened... in the name of security... |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:30 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Let me get this straight... Columbia is not a bastion of liberalism? |
Beats me. Am I supposed to know or care? It's in New York City (I gather) so I'm going to go with a tentative yes, but a republican group managed to get an infamous conservative to speak so it can't be that "bad," can it?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | 20 people? Why am I not surprised that is your estimate. Excuses excuses excuses. |
Ah, fair enough. It was "more than 20." | Quote: | | Protestors took the stage minutes after Jim Gilchrist, founder of the Minuteman Project, came to the microphone in Roone Arledge Auditorium Wednesday night, sparking a chaotic brawl involving more than 20 students, other attendees, and guests. |
So like 20-25. My bad.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Conservatives... at a conservative (republican) event, protesting? |
Protesting an absurdly out racist? Is that hard to believe? Would you feel betrayed or something if a conservative stood up for something decent for once?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Surpressing free speach is OK then? |
I don't see how beating someone up is supressing free speech. If anything, it's the ultimate expression. "I don't like what you're saying, and I'm freely expressing it via a beat down."
No, I don't mean that seriously.
On the other hand, it is not suprising that a protest about an extremely polarizing issue got out of hand, is it?
| theseldomscene wrote: | | PRINT IT ALL!!!...classified, secret and top secret...no matter what it says...print for all to read... and resist any who challenge the free press... |
No. I am not okay with revealing our agents in other countries. I think that more of what our government does should be known by the people that give it power, but I don't think certain things should be public knowledge if for no other reason than the bodily harm that would occur in the event of their exposure.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:55 am Post subject: |
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i disagree...if the gov can't keep it secret without the law demanding the free press bow to the will of the gov...then it should be printed if they find it...and there can never be any penalties for printing the truth...
the only penalties the gov should be allowed to afford in such a situation...is to find the one that leaked it and punish them...not the press...
the press must be free from gov control on all levels or it is not free..
the "professionals" that are trained in torture for instance....would simply be called secret agents with shielded identities, and could then never be exposed...
your arguement is a box that cannot and must not ever be open...as all would be protected and none should be...the press is not to be the gov. protecter...but it's exposer...
an agents job is dangerous...but it is not the job of the press to keep their secret identity hidden...if the gov can't keep it hid from the press...then they can't keep it hid from highly trainned agents of other countries who job it is to find such info out and are carrying more money to bribe with than a reporter does...
also, to not allow the press to print such would actually weaken the cause of keeping the agents safe...if the name is leaked...print it...then all would know the word is out and not just a few behind the scenes that might try to cover it...endangering the life of the agent who may not know themselves they have been exposed...plus it would make the gov be extra careful and take extra precautions to safe guard such info...as they should...
i believe anything that has to do with the gov that is true should and must be printed... |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | On the other hand, it is not suprising that a protest about an extremely polarizing issue got out of hand, is it? |
It isn't the idea of protest that is surpising... it is the frequency of these types of supressions/disruptions 'getting out of hand' of conservatives that I find completey amazing. I mean... if you disagree with a PoV... debate it. But, to have a liberal campus lke Columbia, to not even allow a PoV contrary to their philosophy be presented is reminisent of 1930's Germany. If they are shouting down Hillary (yes... even Hillary deserves to be heard) or chucking pies at Ann Coulter... it is nothing more that supression of PoV's that are not consistent with their own... and that is the point.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Oct 09, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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amen...everyone should be able to speak their minds free from threat of harm or intimidation...ones that stoop to the level of attacking another because of their words are....
can't find the words... |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | amen...everyone should be able to speak their minds free from threat of harm or intimidation...ones that stoop to the level of attacking another because of their words are....
can't find the words... |
 In this case, and in many others - Democrats. Talking out both sides of their mouths...
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Let me get this straight... Columbia is not a bastion of liberalism? |
The words 'liberal', 'conservative', 'left', and 'right', are completely relative. Is Columbia a bastion of liberalism? It TOTALLY depends on who you ask. If you were to ask a member of the Marxist-Leninist Party, they would say that Columbia is a bastion of right-wing capitalist oppression. If you were to ask a typical Fox News viewer, then yes, it would be a bastion of liberalism. It's all relative.
As for the free speech issue, it has NOTHING to do with left or the right. Noam Chomsky is one of the biggest advocates for free speech that humanity has to offer, and he is definitely considered by most people to be left-wing or even far-left. Libertarians ALSO are big advocates for free speech, and most people agree that they are right wing. So like I said, this is not a left / right issue.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
As for the free speech issue, it has NOTHING to do with left or the right. Noam Chomsky is one of the biggest advocates for free speech that humanity has to offer, and he is definitely considered by most people to be left-wing or even far-left. Libertarians ALSO are big advocates for free speech, and most people agree that they are right wing. So like I said, this is not a left / right issue. |
Well... when one side is the one physically preventing the other from presenting a different PoV, in a setting supposedly open to 'free speach'... I would say that it indeed a leftist problem... as anyone daring to challenge the sacred PC cow is dealt with 'accordingly'.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Well... when one side is the one physically preventing the other from presenting a different PoV, in a setting supposedly open to 'free speach'... I would say that it indeed a leftist problem... as anyone daring to challenge the sacred PC cow is dealt with 'accordingly'. |
I happen to AGREE that the left constantly clamps down on free speech rights. Being at a major university, I see it ALL THE TIME. In fact, I've seen professors who are supposed to be protected by tenure being censored and hounded, so you're totally right.
On the other hand, I've also seen the right constantly clamp down on free speech rights. Just look at how the right dealt with anyone who questioned Bush for like three years following Sept. 11th. They were IMMEDIATELY labeled as unpatriotic and censored.
So like I said before, don't make this a left vs. right issue. Censorship has NOTHING to do left or right; it is a tactic employed by scumbags from ALL parts of the spectrum to silence their adversaries.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | I happen to AGREE that the left constantly clamps down on free speech rights. Being at a major university, I see it ALL THE TIME. In fact, I've seen professors who are supposed to be protected by tenure being censored and hounded, so you're totally right. |
I agree professors should be able to speak their mind... really... I have no problem with that. However... lets take this Ward Churchill... here we have a professor stating that the people on 9/11 deserved to die. Should he have the right to say that? I believe he should... however (again) as a professor at a state university, he, and his opinions, should be held accountable. What I mean by this is that... people get all miffed when religion (specifically Christianity) is discussed in a public school as it can be construed as an endorsement of a religion... so wouldn't this also appear to be an endorsement of a position too using the same criteria? Same applies to that other idiot in Madison Wisconsin. He states it was Bush and Cheney that were behind 9/11... should he be able to say this? Sure... but he should also be held accountable for these statements.
| Quote: | | On the other hand, I've also seen the right constantly clamp down on free speech rights. Just look at how the right dealt with anyone who questioned Bush for like three years following Sept. 11th. They were IMMEDIATELY labeled as unpatriotic and censored. |
The only 'labels' I have seen is that they were wrong.... dead wrong. I don't remember anyone calling them unpatriotic... anyone from the administration anyway. Even from Fox, Rush, or anyone on the right with any clout... maybe this is only a perception. Do you have any citations here?
| Quote: | | So like I said before, don't make this a left vs. right issue. Censorship has NOTHING to do left or right; it is a tactic employed by scumbags from ALL parts of the spectrum to silence their adversaries. |
P... I am only pointing out that the censorship, shouting down, etc... comes from the left... not the right. That is all I have seen... none of it is coming from the right.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 5:26 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
However... lets take this Ward Churchill... here we have a professor stating that the people on 9/11 deserved to die. Should he have the right to say that? I believe he should... however (again) as a professor at a state university, he, and his opinions, should be held accountable.
... Same applies to that other idiot in Madison Wisconsin. He states it was Bush and Cheney that were behind 9/11... should he be able to say this? Sure... but he should also be held accountable for these statements.
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Trinity, by what you're saying here, it seems pretty clear that you do not support free speech. Are these guys total idiots? Yes, of course. In fact, I would go so far as to call them evil. But if you support free speech, then you support free speech PRECISELY for those views that you find repugnant. It isn't a big deal at all if you support free speech for views that you AGREE with. Even Hitler and Goebbels pass that test. The true test for whether or not you support free speech is if you support it for the people that say terrible things that you find extremely offensive.
You are saying that people who say crazy things that you find offensive should be held accountable. This is EXACTLY the position that Hitler and Stalin took on free speech. The only difference is that their prescribed punishments were a lot harsher than the ones you're advocating (I hope).
So like I said, these guys can say whatever they want, and there should be NO accountability. That is the point of free speech. The exception is if they are teaching classes or something like that and then they start ranting to their classes. Then there is a good reason for firing them, just like there would be a good reason for firing me if I'm teaching a computer science class but decide to lecture about politics instead.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
The only 'labels' I have seen is that they were wrong.... dead wrong. I don't remember anyone calling them unpatriotic... anyone from the administration anyway. Even from Fox, Rush, or anyone on the right with any clout... maybe this is only a perception. Do you have any citations here?
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Trinity, it happened extensively. Just go to Google and type in Sept. 11th, Censorship, Unpatriotic, Traitor. You'll get plenty. Here is just one example:
http://www.freemuse.org/sw6621.asp
| Trinity1 wrote: |
P... I am only pointing out that the censorship, shouting down, etc... comes from the left... not the right. That is all I have seen... none of it is coming from the right. |
Trinity, this is totally wrong. EVERY government uses censorship as a tactic. It is normal, and has been practiced throughout history. The left as well as the right do it all the time. I think my post-Sept. 11th example is a good one from recent American history of the right doing it.
More close to home, YOU are advocating censorship! You are saying that these guys crazy left-wing nuts should be held accountable for what they say, and you are definitely right-wing. That is exactly the definition of censorship!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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