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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | P123... wrote: | | Obviously speech which causes immediate physical danger should not be protected. Pretty much all other speech should. |
So libel and slander should be okay then? No penalty, no accountability? |
It depends on the particulars of the case. Is it libel for you to call Clinton an adulterous immoral letch? Is it libel for me to call Bush a warmonger?
Clinton and Bush might think so, but I don't. I think that we should be able to say these things because criticising people in power is extremely important.
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"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like the Liberal Left was at again today at Central Michigan University. Evidently those supporting affirmative action do not support free speach, freedom of expression, or discenting views.... to the point of using force (again) to squelch these views.
Is it me... or do I see a patern developing here... 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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"We are for freedom! and we wil beat down anyone who doesn't agree with us!"
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | Looks like the Liberal Left was at again today at Central Michigan University. Evidently those supporting affirmative action do not support free speach, freedom of expression, or discenting views.... to the point of using force (again) to squelch these views.
Is it me... or do I see a patern developing here... |
I'm not denying that the left tries to use censorship. Political correctness is an excellent example of this.
Where was force used, though? Can you cite that?
All I want you to realize is that this is not a left vs. right issue. The right engages in censorship as well!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | Where was force used, though? Can you cite that?
All I want you to realize is that this is not a left vs. right issue. The right engages in censorship as well! |
It was on O'Reilly last night. There was a meeting concerning the upcoming ballot initiative in Michigan over raced based affirmative action. Those who were for raced based affirmative action shouted down the speakers... wouldn't let them speak... again.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | Where was force used, though? Can you cite that?
All I want you to realize is that this is not a left vs. right issue. The right engages in censorship as well! |
It was on O'Reilly last night. There was a meeting concerning the upcoming ballot initiative in Michigan over raced based affirmative action. Those who were for raced based affirmative action shouted down the speakers... wouldn't let them speak... again. |
Although a heinous act of censorship, that certainly does not qualify as 'force'.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:58 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Although a heinous act of censorship, that certainly does not qualify as 'force'. |
By 'shouting' down free speech... it is force. You are not allowing it. You don't have to go up to the person and physically remove them or wrap your fingers around their necks to force them to be quite... this is force! Pure and simple, and it is coming from the left... again... and again... and again.
Not the right.
So, who is for free speech and who, by as demonstrated by their actions, is not?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:32 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | By 'shouting' down free speech... it is force. |
By "shouting" down free speech ... it seems they're expressing free speech of their own, doesn't it? 
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1512
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| Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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FFT, they are...although it resembles chaotic disorder...and seems to fall more in line with "Might makes Right" rather than "Reason and Logic lead to Enlightenment"
I was raised under the premise of the Golden Rule and the idea that your rights end where my nose starts....volume never componsates for soundness in intelligent debate
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Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6337
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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I was not in the least bit serious
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Although a heinous act of censorship, that certainly does not qualify as 'force'. |
By 'shouting' down free speech... it is force. You are not allowing it. You don't have to go up to the person and physically remove them or wrap your fingers around their necks to force them to be quite... this is force!
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It's terrible, and it's heinous, and it's censorship, but it's NOT force! Drowning out someone's speech is not a violent act! It's a scummy and immoral act, but it's not violent and it does not involve force! Force has to be physical and corporal. It isn't just an issue of volume.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Pure and simple, and it is coming from the left... again... and again... and again.
Not the right.
So, who is for free speech and who, by as demonstrated by their actions, is not? |
Come on; don't think for a second that the Left has some kind of monopoly on censorship. If you want a relevant example from the Bush administration, just look at how tightly they censor the pictures of coffins returning from Iraq with American flags on them. They try their hardest to make sure that the media doesn't get any pictures, and it's all to make sure that public opinion doesn't do the same thing that it did in Vietnam when too many soldiers were being killed.
I'm all for supporting the soldiers, and maybe censoring the pictures is a good idea, but make no mistake about it; it is censorship, and it is coming from the right.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
By 'shouting' down free speech... it is force. You are not allowing it. You don't have to go up to the person and physically remove them or wrap your fingers around their necks to force them to be quite... this is force!
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It's terrible, and it's heinous, and it's censorship, but it's NOT force! Drowning out someone's speech is not a violent act! It's a scummy and immoral act, but it's not violent and it does not involve force! Force has to be physical and corporal. It isn't just an issue of volume. |
I didn't say it was violent... it was forced silence. Silencing your opponents does not need to be done with violence. If I simply jammed all of the transmissions coming out of Air America would that not be a form of censorship... not that anyone would notice of course. 
| Quote: | | Come on; don't think for a second that the Left has some kind of monopoly on censorship. If you want a relevant example from the Bush administration, just look at how tightly they censor the pictures of coffins returning from Iraq with American flags on them. They try their hardest to make sure that the media doesn't get any pictures, and it's all to make sure that public opinion doesn't do the same thing that it did in Vietnam when too many soldiers were being killed. |
Actually, those pictures are 'censored' out of respect for the families of the soldiers and to keep them from being used as propaganda by our enemies... kinda like sending a video to CNN of them sniping a soldier, and then airing it... while the observer expresses concern for the possibility of hitting a civilian. Now, call me cynical... but when in the hell did these guys start giving a flippant snot about the well being or safety of anyone... especially innocent civilians.
| Quote: | | I'm all for supporting the soldiers, and maybe censoring the pictures is a good idea, but make no mistake about it; it is censorship, and it is coming from the right. |
Perhaps... but I don't think there is a moral equivalency here....
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:12 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | I'm all for supporting the soldiers, and maybe censoring the pictures is a good idea, but make no mistake about it; it is censorship, and it is coming from the right. |
Perhaps... but I don't think there is a moral equivalency here.... |
It's not so simple. If the American public saw all of the flag-draped coffins of soldiers coming home, then maybe public opinion against the war would be so strong that something would have to be done ensuring that FEWER coffins were coming home...
By not showing the pictures, the Bush administration is helping to make sure that a mechanism which would decrease the number of coffins does not kick in.
That's censorship, and it's about as political as possible. Is it worse than drowning out someone's speech? Who knows. The two cases are totally different.
But it is censorship, and it is on a much larger scale than someone being censored at a rally.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:03 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | I'm all for supporting the soldiers, and maybe censoring the pictures is a good idea, but make no mistake about it; it is censorship, and it is coming from the right. |
Perhaps... but I don't think there is a moral equivalency here.... |
It's not so simple. If the American public saw all of the flag-draped coffins of soldiers coming home, then maybe public opinion against the war would be so strong that something would have to be done ensuring that FEWER coffins were coming home... |
With websites like THIS one... what is the need to see the coffins P? You are using the same excuse that CNN used for airing that sniper snuff video. There isn't a need for viewing the coffins period. If you want pictures of coffins... go to the funerals. Take pictures of the widows... the orphans... then put those pictures out there. Stir up resentment towards the war that way... see how that works. Tell these widows that their husbands death was for nothing... tell the orphans their dad's died for no reason at all... they died for a lie... is this what you would have?
| Quote: | | By not showing the pictures, the Bush administration is helping to make sure that a mechanism which would decrease the number of coffins does not kick in. |
No.. what he is doing is protecting the dignity of the soldiers and not allowing them to be used for political purposes by those who oppose the war. Sorry, they made that mistake before... ain't going to let it happen regardless of how loud people want to crow. What public need is there for the public to see the coffins of soldiers coming back from Iraq?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
With websites like THIS one... what is the need to see the coffins P?
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Because practically nobody goes to that website. One of the main forces that stopped the Vietnam war was the pictures of all the American bodybags coming home. The Bush administration understood that they needed to get out ahead of that problem this time around if they wanted to keep the war going.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
You are using the same excuse that CNN used for airing that sniper snuff video.
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No, I'm not. In fact, I'm not even saying that the coffins SHOULD be shown. I'm just pointing out that you were totally wrong in your assertion that censorship only comes from the left. The fact that you and I agree with it does not mean that it isn't censorship.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
There isn't a need for viewing the coffins period.
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It isn't that simple. If you really want fewer coffins to come home and that is your main agenda, then having the public see them is very important.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
If you want pictures of coffins... go to the funerals. Take pictures of the widows... the orphans... then put those pictures out there. Stir up resentment towards the war that way... see how that works. Tell these widows that their husbands death was for nothing... tell the orphans their dad's died for no reason at all... they died for a lie... is this what you would have?
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No, and I don't even know why you would ask me this. First of all, I would never be so disrespectful to people. Secondly, I don't even agree that they died for nothing.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
No.. what he is doing is protecting the dignity of the soldiers and not allowing them to be used for political purposes by those who oppose the war. |
You've got that half right. I think it's obvious that Bush doesn't care at all about the soldiers. After all, if he did, then you'd think that they would have sent you guys over there with at least some adequate level of body armor. They didn't.
But you hit the nail on the head with the second half of your statement. The pictures are being censored so that opponents of the war cannot use them. That's still called censorship, and that was my only point here. The right uses censorship just as much as the left does, if not more so.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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