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Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:23 am Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity, by what you're saying here, it seems pretty clear that you do not support free speech.

Absolutely not. If they want to say this... honestly, I have no problem with that. They both, however, are employees of state sponsored (tax payer funded) universities. They have an obligation to the tax payers if they are going to be on the public dole.

If they worked for a private college, or were selling their drivel using private dollars... I have no problem at all with that. What I do have a problem with is that they have been entrusted by the public to educate our youth... and now, are subjecting our youth to just plain falsies, under girding them with their public positions (thereby providing a sense of governmental endorsement) and using this further their own personal agendas. That is where I get a little miffed!

Quote:

Are these guys total idiots? Yes, of course. In fact, I would go so far as to call them evil.

I have a few other choice words I learned in the Army I'd use... but am afraid the censor bat would nail me...

Quote:

But if you support free speech, then you support free speech PRECISELY for those views that you find repugnant. It isn't a big deal at all if you support free speech for views that you AGREE with. Even Hitler and Goebbels pass that test. The true test for whether or not you support free speech is if you support it for the people that say terrible things that you find extremely offensive.

And I do... however, I don't expect my tax dollars to be spent on supporting their repugnant views. There are plenty of leftist organizations out there willing to do this... let them pay the bills.

Quote:

You are saying that people who say crazy things that you find offensive should be held accountable. This is EXACTLY the position that Hitler and Stalin took on free speech. The only difference is that their prescribed punishments were a lot harsher than the ones you're advocating (I hope).

Accountability is synonymous with responsibility. They are indeed responsible for what they say. Thereby, the university... the publicly funded university, is responsible for what they say IN THEIR CLASSROOMS. They can say it all they want outside of class... not using publicly funded platforms as their foundations...

Quote:

So like I said, these guys can say whatever they want, and there should be NO accountability. That is the point of free speech.

and I disagree. Freedom (and this is where the left is always wrong) inherently requires responsibility. Read some of what Washington and Franklin had to say about it. They knew a free society that would not take responsibility for itself would be doomed... and this is where the left fails every time.

Quote:

The exception is if they are teaching classes or something like that and then they start ranting to their classes. Then there is a good reason for firing them, just like there would be a good reason for firing me if I'm teaching a computer science class but decide to lecture about politics instead.

The one in Wisconsin is making his students buy his book for his class (the book has his article outlining how Cheney engineered 9/11). Should he then be fired?

Quote:

Trinity, it happened extensively. Just go to Google and type in Sept. 11th, Censorship, Unpatriotic, Traitor. You'll get plenty. Here is just one example:
http://www.freemuse.org/sw6621.asp

You said that those who disagreed with the war were called 'unpatriotic'. I am wanting to know who of any stature has made this comment or assertion.

Quote:

Trinity, this is totally wrong. EVERY government uses censorship as a tactic. It is normal, and has been practiced throughout history. The left as well as the right do it all the time. I think my post-Sept. 11th example is a good one from recent American history of the right doing it.

Where has any right wing organization shouted down, physically impeded, or vandalized any leftist organization in the last 25 years... in America.... trying to prohibit them from speaking their opinions?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

RevJP
Moderator

Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005

Location: USA

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:14 am Post subject:

Quote:

So like I said, these guys can say whatever they want, and there should be NO accountability. That is the point of free speech. The exception is if they are teaching classes or something like that and then they start ranting to their classes. Then there is a good reason for firing them, just like there would be a good reason for firing me if I'm teaching a computer science class but decide to lecture about politics instead.

So one could scream "FIRE" in a crowded theater and not be held accountable? One could stand in front of a synogog and shout anti-semitic epithets and not be held accountable? No. Society has demonstrated and legislated that free speech IS in fact limited in some respects and responsibility and accountability IS in fact required.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity, by what you're saying here, it seems pretty clear that you do not support free speech.

Trinity, on one hand you're saying that these guys should be allowed to say whatever they want, but on the other hand you're saying that if they say stuff that you find repugnant, then they should be punished. This is NOT free speech!

As for the issue of being on the public payroll, pretty much ALL university researchers get SOME taxpayer money. Does that mean that every taxpayer gets to have some input into what they do? No! Just look at the war in Iraq. It's not like you get to tell the U.S. army what to do just because you pay some taxes.

Trinity1 wrote:

The one in Wisconsin is making his students buy his book for his class (the book has his article outlining how Cheney engineered 9/11). Should he then be fired?

This is a totally different issue. This has nothing to do with free speech. It sounds to me like this guy is abusing his position and teaching crap in his course. So yes, if what you are saying is true, then he should probably be reprimanded and told to teach his course properly, or even fired, just like I should be fired if I do a really bad job teaching a course. It sounds to me like you and I are agreeing on pretty much every topic here.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 12:42 pm Post subject:

RevJP wrote:

Quote:

Sure, and I agree. Clearly you shouldn't be able to shout fire, or publish classified documents, or do all sorts of other things that involve security and safety issues.

But that's not the issue here. Your synagogue example is a good one. Do you think that Holocaust denial should be protected speech, or should someone who denies the Holocaust be persecuted for hate speech?

I (as well as the U.S. government, and pretty much all scholars on the subject) think that Holocaust denial MUST be protected speech. People who deny the Holocaust are incredibly evil and lose their very humanity by talking about this stuff, but their speech MUST be protected.

What do you think?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 3:56 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

I did? Where did I say that?

Quote:

As for the issue of being on the public payroll, pretty much ALL university researchers get SOME taxpayer money. Does that mean that every taxpayer gets to have some input into what they do? No! Just look at the war in Iraq. It's not like you get to tell the U.S. army what to do just because you pay some taxes.

These guys are not researchers... their leaches sucking the money out of public coffers to further their fictional... baseless... pointy-head-commy-lib agendas. Their positions have nothing to do with educating our yutes... and everything to propagate an extremist agenda.

Quote:

Trinity1 wrote:

The one in Wisconsin is making his students buy his book for his class (the book has his article outlining how Cheney engineered 9/11). Should he then be fired?

But... he would be fired for his speach? The guys name is Kevin Barret BTW. Take a look. Is this something we should be allowing into our universities under the guise of free speech? I have no problem with his right to say this... he can go right ahead... but don't give this guy a platform at a state university to further it.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 3:48 am Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

I did? Where did I say that?

You said that they should be 'held accountable'. That is the same thing as being reprimanded or punished.

Trinity1 wrote:

It's not that simple. There are also Holocaust deniers doing research on the public payroll. There are also people doing research trying to show that Global Warming is fiction. There are also people researching how God created the universe, and trying to prove that the Earth is 7000 years old. It's ALL research, and it doesn't matter if we think it's evil or if we disagree with it. The very fact that these guys can do this research without being kicked out of universities proves that we live in a very healthy environment in which free-speech and expression and inquiry are protected. So although there might be point instances of people doing bad stuff, the overall picture is healthy.

Trinity1 wrote:

I'll be as clear-cut as I can be: if this quack is teaching his crazy ideas in class as if they were fact, then he should be fired, but NOT for any speech issues. He should be fired for not doing his job. By contrast, if he is saying crazy things outside of the classroom, as long as he isn't yelling fire or trying to have people killed or anything like that, his speech should be totally protected.

If you want the guy to be held accountable for what he says outside of the classroom, then you're playing with a massively dangerous slippery slope. All of a sudden, people who you AGREE with will start getting fired.

For example, have you heard of Donald Knuth? Here is his Wikipedia page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth

Knuth is a god in the computer science community. He won a Turing Award and has more feathers in his hat than pretty much anyone in the area. If I achieve half of what he did in his career, then I'll be VERY lucky. He literally is a super-genius. I wouldn't be surprised if his IQ is like 180 or something like that. He's also a Christian and he gives extensive talks about Christianity and God and religion, despite the fact that this is TOTALLY outside of his area of tenure and research. If you want to censor the crazy prof. with the crazy 9/11 theories, then it won't be long before the censors start knocking on the doors of people like Knuth.

The ONLY way to avoid sliding down this slippery slope is to be as liberal as possible with free speech rights.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

You said that they should be 'held accountable'. That is the same thing as being reprimanded or punished.

No... it is saying they should not abuse their positions of authority to push a radical personal agenda at tax payer expense. If they want to do it on their own 'dime'... they are more than welcome to it.

Quote:

What if he is abusing his position? Does that count? Are not teachers held accountable for abusing their positions? The college I work at... they sure are held accountable... if they abuse their positions... they don't even finish out the class... let alone the day.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 6:05 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

Let's make this simple. I think we both agree that if a professor teaches absurdities as if they were fact to a class that is paying to take a real course, then that prof. should be fired.

The question is, what do we do with professors who say crazy stuff OUTSIDE of the classroom? I claim that unless they are yelling fire or trying to use speech in order to have people killed, then whatever they say should be protected. Do you agree with this?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

RevJP
Moderator

Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005

Location: USA

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:33 pm Post subject:

P123 wrote:

But that's not the issue here

Why isn't it? I thought 'free speech' was the issue in question.

Didn't you say:

Quote:

So like I said, these guys can say whatever they want, and there should be NO accountability. That is the point of free speech.

So what is it to be? People can say whatever they want and not be held accountable, or can they say only those things that are approved, or on the 'exception list'?

You cannot have it both ways, either you support completely free speech and opppose all forms of restriction, or you support limited free speech with specified or non-specified abridgements to one's rights.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:08 pm Post subject:

RevJP wrote:

P123 wrote:

But that's not the issue here

Why isn't it? I thought 'free speech' was the issue in question.

Didn't you say:

Quote:

So like I said, these guys can say whatever they want, and there should be NO accountability. That is the point of free speech.

Nobody supports unlimited free speech. Read my last few posts; I make it clear that there is a place for the line to be drawn. All I'm saying is that if you draw it so that Holocaust denial is criminalized, then you're playing with fire.

Obviously speech which causes immediate physical danger should not be protected. Pretty much all other speech should.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:48 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Let's make this simple. I think we both agree that if a professor teaches absurdities as if they were fact to a class that is paying to take a real course, then that prof. should be fired.

Yes... and I this has been my 'ill defined' point... they shouldn't be using a tax payer funded classroom as a platform to advance their political agendas.

Quote:

The question is, what do we do with professors who say crazy stuff OUTSIDE of the classroom?

Ignore them...

Quote:

I claim that unless they are yelling fire or trying to use speech in order to have people killed, then whatever they say should be protected. Do you agree with this?

Yes... and I actually think it is a necessary part of democracy. You always need examples of idiots to illustrate how far stupidity can go.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8322

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:43 pm Post subject:

Trinity1 wrote:

P1234567890 wrote:

Let's make this simple. I think we both agree that if a professor teaches absurdities as if they were fact to a class that is paying to take a real course, then that prof. should be fired.

Yes... and I this has been my 'ill defined' point... they shouldn't be using a tax payer funded classroom as a platform to advance their political agendas.

Quote:

The question is, what do we do with professors who say crazy stuff OUTSIDE of the classroom?

Ignore them...

Quote:

I claim that unless they are yelling fire or trying to use speech in order to have people killed, then whatever they say should be protected. Do you agree with this?

Yes... and I actually think it is a necessary part of democracy. You always need examples of idiots to illustrate how far stupidity can go.

Trinity, it sounds like you and I totally agree on both of these issues!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

RevJP
Moderator

Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005

Location: USA

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:20 pm Post subject:

P123... wrote:

Obviously speech which causes immediate physical danger should not be protected. Pretty much all other speech should.

So libel and slander should be okay then? No penalty, no accountability?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man.

Trinity1
Emperor of the World

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123

Posted: Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Trinity, it sounds like you and I totally agree on both of these issues!

Man I hope not... I might need to reevalute my position here a bit... give me a sec and I'm sure I'll find a line of departure. Wink

_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."

‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith

Ana
King of the Jungle

Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1566

Location: BC

Posted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:53 am Post subject:

I don't think free speech is a shield that protects you from the law. You're free to say whatever you want, but if you break any laws by saying something, then you of course are to be held accountable. _________________ Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. Ana's Bananas

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