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Bernie2
Little Guppy
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: US midwest
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 Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:28 am Post subject: The Necessity of Evil |
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I found the former thread locked, but wanted to continue this discussion with REvjP if he's still willing, as I forgot I'd posted here and only found the thread again this morning.
Going back to Rev's answer to me in former thread..
| Quote: | | Bernie, I'm not sure I understand what you cannot understand. Grace cannot abound without sin, mercy cannot abound without misery. Dark is an essential element for the recognition of light, and man is an essential element for the manifestation of God's benevolence. |
I understand the simple definition of grace to be unmerited favor. If what you say is true, then it appears to me to follow that grace not only did not extend in any form from God to Adam and Eve in their original perfection, but could not possibly have been in existence because there was no evil in them, which would be a prerequisite to grace's existence.
Would this be true or false in your view? |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:50 am Post subject: Re: The Necessity of Evil |
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| Bernie2 wrote: | | I understand the simple definition of grace to be unmerited favor. |
| Quote: | | then it appears to me to follow that grace not only did not extend in any form from God to Adam and Eve in their original perfection, but could not possibly have been in existence because there was no evil in them, |
uh?... |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:55 am Post subject: |
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ps...to say...could not possibly have been in existance is imagination and scriptureless...
the LAMB was foreordained before the foundation of the world...that is grace...in existence before sin...
plus eph says...GOD's purpose in CHRIST is eternal...
foreknowldge...it is a good study... |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 8:27 am Post subject: |
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or did i just mis your point altogether?...excuse me if i did...thanks  ... |
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Bernie2
Little Guppy
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: US midwest
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hello TSS,
Yes, I think you missed my point. I probably wasn't clear.
Rev said, "Grace cannot abound without sin, mercy cannot abound without misery. Dark is an essential element for the recognition of light, and man is an essential element for the manifestation of God's benevolence." I took from this (and from his OP) that he is saying that the existence of evil is a necessary element or condition for grace to exist at all. This suggests that God created evil in some sense, which would act as the originator and perpetrator of grace. I was only thinking that all His benevolence toward Adam in his original perfect state was, by simple definition, an act of grace, which would seem to fly in the face of the notion that evil was necessary to condition grace. I.e., if grace existed in Adam's perfect state, it would follow that the presence of evil is not necessary for grace to exist.
Myt comment that grace could not possibly have been in existence was an extrapolation based on my perception of RevJP's stated position; it was rhetorical.
Again, I may not be properly understanding Rev; I'm just trying to clarify his position because the subject of evil is interesting to me and I like to explore other views on the subject. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| well...bernie now i see what you are saying but...evil did exist...just not in adam...at the time... |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: |
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| TSS, was there a time when good existed without evil? |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| if so...it was before my time... |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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| It was before the existence of anything other than God. |
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Bernie2
Little Guppy
Joined: 19 Aug 2006
Posts: 31
Location: US midwest
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:00 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | well...bernie now i see what you are saying but...evil did exist...just not in adam...at the time... |
I agree. Evil was introduced for consideration and acceptance into Adam/material creation from an outside source. In this regard, I'll also agree with RevJP that God had some hand in creating evil.
I see evil as a property or attribute....let's call it 'falsity'....introduced into creation by Adam. If everything that existed in the original creation was perfect ("very good" Gen 1:31), then Adam's fall introduced by his choice that which stains and corrupts the perfect. Falsity in this regard would actually be an inert property--which debunks the claim that man is punished for Adam's sin. To me, the Genesis narrative may be an account of every human's 'fall', except we're born into a reality that's filled with some ratio of falsity, whereas Adam got the ball rolling for everyone that followed.
Someone suggested to me some months ago that maybe God allowed the pathology of falsity to be introduced for a reason...sort of like a necessary manifestation of a pathology which requires an antibiotic reaction (salvation as the eradication of falsity from creation) necessary to run its course in reality so that it can be properly dealt with over time. Interesting concept. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'll also agree with RevJP that God had some hand in creating evil. |
When did I say this? Bernie, I don't much appreciate people putting words in my mouth.
Evil, by definition, is the antithesis of good. God is good, therefore, evil is the antithesis of God = Satan.
When did evil come into play? When Lucifer (Satan, what have you) rebelled against God and strove to supplant Him.
Did evil exist in the garden of eden? I'm not sure it existed IN the garden, but it existed at the same time, and if it was not IN the garden from the begining, it entered the garden and tempted Eve. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:02 am Post subject: |
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So does this mean you don't think that God had a hand in creating evil? If not, then where did evil come from? I thought God created everything...?  |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So does this mean you don't think that God had a hand in creating evil? |
It doesn't matter much what I think without scripture.
what does scripture say about it? |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | So does this mean you don't think that God had a hand in creating evil? |
It doesn't matter much what I think without scripture.
what does scripture say about it? |
You're the expert; what does the bible say about it?
Here's what my brain says about it:
There is only one god as per Isaiah 45:5. Suppose God did not have a hand in creating evil. Therefore evil created itself, and is therefore every bit as godly as God, who created himself. This is a contradiction, because there is only one God. Therefore, the supposition is false and God did have a hand in creating evil. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6845
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You're the expert; |
Well, I appreciate your vote of confidence, but I have never claimed to be an expert on anything, have I? |
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