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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6116
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 3:42 am Post subject: On Evidence for Evolution |
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Adherents to the theory of evolution tend to scoff at creationists for ignoring evidence. This is simply accepted. The evidence is rationally insurmountable. Imagine an ocean of evidence — creationists would be bottom feeders, unable to see the evidence amassed above them. Evolutionists would liken themselves to swimmers, looking down from their lofty perch above the ocean of evidence. Problem is, they're fooling themselves.
Here's the backlog of The Journal of Vertebrate Paleontology to 1981. You have to be a member to read the full articles in each issue, but the abstract is available. Every one of them (I browsed) relates to evolution.
Here's the backlog of the Journal of Paleontology to 1998.. Again, only abstracts, but it's all evolution.
Here's the backlog of The Royal Society's Proceedings B to 1997. Same deal.
The backlog of the National Academy of Sciences' Proceedings dating back to 1915. Not specific to biology (it covers the physical and social sciences as well) but still lots of information. Actually has the full texts along with abstracts available if you have the time to read them.
Thousands of articles. And that's only for four journals. New evidence is found nearly every day.
Creationists blissfully go about ignoring it all, but we're not swimming safely above them. There's too much for any single person to reasonably take in. We're drowning in evidence.
Thanks to Oolon Colluphid of IIDB for the analogy and the journal links (except for PNAS, I found that one).
Last edited by FFT on Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7708
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 4:18 am Post subject: |
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I like your claim that we are drowning in evidence; I think that this hits the nail exactly on the head.
I was reading an interesting article in Humanist Perspectives, a Secular Humanist quarterly. (Its website is here.)
The current issue is dedicated to criticizing SSHRC, the Canadian government granting agency which funds humanities and social sciences in Canada for having a friendly view towards ID. In one of the articles from the current issue (unfortunately I don't think it's on-line), the author makes a very interesting comparison between evolution denial and Holocaust denial. There are definite parallels:
1. There is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that the Holocaust happened, and there is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that evolution happened.
2. There are people out there who deny the Holocaust, and there are people out there who deny evolution.
3. The motivation for these denials are the same: many Holocaust deniers are motivated by politics rather than by the search for truth, and many evolution deniers are motivated by politics rather than by the search for truth.
In another thread we were discussing how creationists try to smear evolution by saying that Hitler liked it. Well, here's a smear going the other direction, and I dare say that this one is more damning, since it equates the thought processes behind evolution and holocaust denial.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:56 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | I like your claim that we are drowning in evidence; I think that this hits the nail exactly on the head. |
Mantra... say it often enough it becomes true. If everything you see is viewed through a purely materialistic perspective, it will naturally ALL turn up roses.
Take the glasses off, view it from a purely Biblical perspective, it all comes out the same way... Mantra.
| Quote: | | 1. There is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that the Holocaust happened, and there is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that evolution happened. |
Fallaciaous argument.
| Quote: | | 2. There are people out there who deny the Holocaust, and there are people out there who deny evolution. |
True... so they both must be Nazi's I suppose. 
| Quote: | | 3. The motivation for these denials are the same: many Holocaust deniers are motivated by politics rather than by the search for truth, |
I agree.
| Quote: | | and many evolution deniers are motivated by politics rather than by the search for truth. |
And if we say that God's word is the truth, and we interpret the evidence in light of that truth... we are, somehow deniers of someone else’s opinion... hmmmmm.
| Quote: | | In another thread we were discussing how creationists try to smear evolution by saying that Hitler liked it. |
Well... he did say that Jews were only a little more progressed than apes... and that Aryans were at the top of development... using Darwinian evolution… didn’t he? He didn’t get it out of the Bible… did he?
| Quote: | | Well, here's a smear going the other direction, and I dare say that this one is more damning, since it equates the thought processes behind evolution and holocaust denial. |
Are all holocaust deniers creationists?
Are all creationists holocaust deniers?
Are all evolutionists holocaust deniers?
Where is the correlation P?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1553
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | Well, here's a smear going the other direction, and I dare say that this one is more damning, since it equates the thought processes behind evolution and holocaust denial. |
Are all holocaust deniers creationists?
Are all creationists holocaust deniers?
Are all evolutionists holocaust deniers?
Where is the correlation P? |
| P wrote: | | 3. The motivation for these denials are the same: many Holocaust deniers are motivated by politics rather than by the search for truth, and many evolution deniers are motivated by politics rather than by the search for truth. |
I think the correlation is quite apparent in that both groups deny something despite a large amount of evidence because of politics rather than by the search for truth.
You're setting up a strawman by saying P's point is to say that members of one group are necessarily members of the other.
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | I think the correlation is quite apparent in that both groups deny something despite a large amount of evidence because of politics rather than by the search for truth.
You're setting up a strawman by saying P's point is to say that members of one group are necessarily members of the other. |
The point is always the same. It comes back to the 'evidence'. Every piece of evidence thrown out there demonstrating the veracity of ToE, when analyzed objectively... doesn't pan out as conclusive for some strange reason. There are always those inferences, subjective tests, comparative analyses that could have several meaning but those doing the comparing get to pick and choose what it is... etc...
With the Holocaust.... you have actual live witnesses to testify of its occurrence. You have physical photographic evidence. The two are completely different. I believe it is P who has set up a Strawman here... been watching or reading a smidge too much of Shermer me thinks.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7708
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
Are all holocaust deniers creationists?
Are all creationists holocaust deniers?
Are all evolutionists holocaust deniers?
Where is the correlation P? |
The relationship is like I said: both the holocaust and evolution have MOUNTAINS of evidence supporting them (except that evolution probably has more), and both groups of nay-sayers are denying the truth for political reasons.
Note that I'm NOT making a moral judgement. This is where the analogy breaks down. Holocaust deniers are pure evil. Denying evolution does NOT make someone evil. So I am willing to concede that the analogy can only be taken so far.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6116
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Aug 23, 2006 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Mantra... say it often enough it becomes true. |
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Take the glasses off, view it from a purely Biblical perspective, it all comes out the same way... Mantra. |
Odd how you have to adopt a dogma to see the theory of evolution as a dogma.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | 1. There is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that the Holocaust happened, and there is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that evolution happened. |
Fallaciaous argument. |
Really? How so? Because this part doesn't even look like an argument to me.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | True... so they both must be Nazi's I suppose. |
Strawman, P said nothing of the sort. Further, it's not Nazis that are Holocaust deniers, it's mostly Muslims. If you wanted to say both groups are Muslims that's your call, but I doubt you'd consider yourself a Muslim.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Well... he did say that Jews were only a little more progressed than apes... and that Aryans were at the top of development... using Darwinian evolution… didn’t he? |
Nope. Hitler didn't believe in evolution any more than you did. Nazi eugenics were based on Mendellian genetics. They were inspired by eugenics movements in the US. If you read stuff Hitler actually wrote, he never espouses evolution. He does speak about "kinds," though.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | He didn’t get it out of the Bible… did he? |
Need I remind you what all Nazi soldiers had engraved on their belt buckles?
| Trinity1 wrote: | Are all holocaust deniers creationists?
Are all creationists holocaust deniers?
Are all evolutionists holocaust deniers?
Where is the correlation P? |
Equates thought processes.
Please stop putting words in people's mouths.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Every piece of evidence thrown out there demonstrating the veracity of ToE, when analyzed objectively... doesn't pan out as conclusive for some strange reason. |
Which is exactly what Holocaust deniers say about the Holocaust. Which, for that matter, is exactly what Flat Earthers say about round Earth evidence.
1. Just because you don't accept something doesn't make it not true.
2. You aren't looking at the evidence objectively, you're looking at it from a purely Biblical perspective, remember?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | With the Holocaust.... you have actual live witnesses to testify of its occurrence. You have physical photographic evidence. The two are completely different. I believe it is P who has set up a Strawman here... been watching or reading a smidge too much of Shermer me thinks. |
It's a correlation between the thought processes, it's not identical.
Holocaust deniers deny a historical event. Evolution deniers deny the most soundly supported theory there is. There's more in common than apparently you'd like to believe. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
The relationship is like I said: both the holocaust and evolution have MOUNTAINS of evidence supporting them (except that evolution probably has more), and both groups of nay-sayers are denying the truth for political reasons. |
And when these 'mountains' of evolutionary evidence are actually challenged... they are nothing more than opinion and conjecture... there is huge difference here and there is absolutely no correlation.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | 1. There is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that the Holocaust happened, and there is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that evolution happened. |
Fallaciaous argument. |
Really? How so? Because this part doesn't even look like an argument to me. |
Perhaps to someone who has never been exposed to criticisms of ToE it would not look like a fallacious argument. I suppose those children growing in Soviet Russia thought the same when being taught about capitalism and communism.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Well... he did say that Jews were only a little more progressed than apes... and that Aryans were at the top of development... using Darwinian evolution… didn’t he? |
Nope. Hitler didn't believe in evolution any more than you did. Nazi eugenics were based on Mendellian genetics. They were inspired by eugenics movements in the US. If you read stuff Hitler actually wrote, he never espouses evolution. He does speak about "kinds," though. |
He didn't? Have you seen the below listed quote on my signature?
or this:
| Quote: | | If Nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile. Mein Kamph |
or this
| Quote: | | "The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable." Mein Kamph |
or perhaps his lamenting of the Jews bringing negros into the Rhineland from Africa ruining the white race (which was predicated on what? Christianity? Creationism? or Evolution?) Not to hard to figure out FFT.
Please, the influence of evolution on Hitler is patently obvious. Eugenics was only a part of the picture here. It was his evolutionary foundation that lead him to his terror.
| Quote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | He didn’t get it out of the Bible… did he? |
Need I remind you what all Nazi soldiers had engraved on their belt buckles? |
Yep... fine Christian soldiers carrying out the Great Commission... kill everyone that doesn't look like you...  Great argument.
| Quote: | | 1. Just because you don't accept something doesn't make it not true. |
Hey... we can agree on something!
| Quote: | | 2. You aren't looking at the evidence objectively, you're looking at it from a purely Biblical perspective, remember? |
And the reason why I look at it from a Biblical perspective is... what again? I’ve never accepted or examined the associated problems?
| Quote: | | Holocaust deniers deny a historical event. Evolution deniers deny the most soundly supported theory there is. |
Did I mention this is a mantra?!?!? Perhaps you didn't see that in my previous posts.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:43 am Post subject: |
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HERE is a great read that might help you out FFT.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: |
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HERE is the authors presentation or overview of his book. It is in Real Player format and you can save it to disk for viewing.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6116
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | 1. There is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that the Holocaust happened, and there is an overwhelming amount of physical evidence showing that evolution happened. |
Fallaciaous argument. |
Really? How so? Because this part doesn't even look like an argument to me. |
Perhaps to someone who has never been exposed to criticisms of ToE it would not look like a fallacious argument. |
Since when was a pair of premises an argument to begin with, much less fallacious? Do you really have any idea what you're talking about?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | He didn't? Have you seen the below listed quote on my signature? |
You mean the quote from someone that was not Hitler?
| Hitler wrote: | | If Nature does not wish that weaker individuals should mate with the stronger, she wishes even less that a superior race should intermingle with an inferior one; because in such a case all her efforts, throughout hundreds of thousands of years, to establish an evolutionary higher stage of being, may thus be rendered futile. Mein Kamph |
| Hitler wrote: | | "The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he, after all, is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development (Hoherentwicklung) of organic living beings would be unthinkable." Mein Kamph |
Uh huh. | Hitler wrote: | | Any crossing of two beings not at exactly the same level produces a medium between the level of the two parents. This means: the offspring will probably stand higher than the racially lower parent, but not as high as the higher one. Consequently, it will later succumb in the struggle against the higher level. Such mating is contrary to the will of Nature for a higher breeding of all life. The precondition for this does not lie in associating superior and inferior, but in the total victory of the former. The stronger must dominate and not blend with the weaker, thus sacrificing his own greatness. Only the born weakling can view this as cruel, but he after all is only a weak and limited man; for if this law did not prevail, any conceivable higher development of organic living beings would be unthinkable. Mein Kampf |
Mendellian genetics, yes. Evolution, no. Where would the stronger race have come from if crossings only produce medians?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | or perhaps his lamenting of the Jews bringing negros into the Rhineland from Africa ruining the white race (which was predicated on what? Christianity? Creationism? or Evolution?) Not to hard to figure out FFT. |
If you actually read what he wrote instead of seeking out quote-mined passages you'd see he didn't believe in evolution at all. He lamented "the Jews bringing negros into the Rhineland from Africa ruining the white race" because he saw any blending as creating a median race lower than the white race.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Please, the influence of evolution on Hitler is patently obvious. |
Only if you completely ignore what he actually wrote.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Eugenics was only a part of the picture here. It was his evolutionary foundation that lead him to his terror. |
And wrong.
Anyway, eugenics existed long before Darwin. Even Plato supported selective breeding. Spartans left deformed and sickly children out to die rather than raise unfit citizens. Oh, hey! | Hitler wrote: | | Sparta must be regarded as the first folkish state. The exposure of the sick, weak, deformed children, in short their destruction, was more decent and in truth a thousand times more humane than the wretched insanity of our day which preserves the most pathological subject. Hitler's "Secret Book," an unreleased sequel to Mein Kampf |
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Yep... fine Christian soldiers carrying out the Great Commission... kill everyone that doesn't look like you... Great argument. |
Were the Crusades any different?
| Trinity1 wrote: | | And the reason why I look at it from a Biblical perspective is... what again? I’ve never accepted or examined the associated problems? |
I can hardly speculate as to why (I'd probably get in trouble).
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Did I mention this is a mantra?!?!? Perhaps you didn't see that in my previous posts. |
Perhaps you didn't notice all the evidence for it that make it the most soundly supported theory in science? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7708
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
And when these 'mountains' of evolutionary evidence are actually challenged... they are nothing more than opinion and conjecture... there is huge difference here and there is absolutely no correlation. |
That's just it... They are NEVER challenged; at least not scientifically. Papers in peer-reviewed scientific journals challenging evolution based on scientific arguments are EXTREMELY hard to find; I have yet to see one, and I ask for them all the time...
Incidentally, I'd like to add one more group of people to the analogy: global warming deniers. They also deny all sorts of factual scientific evidence for political reasons.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 746
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:42 am Post subject: |
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Trinity and FFT,
Hitler was a theosophist.
Race identity to a theosophist is founded on the belief that there are five root races. Of them certain ones are blood-tainted. The blood taint is a believed to be genetic corruption of the true and pure races of mankind. the conclusion is reached through religious, metaphysical, and philosophical and considerations initiated by channeling ascended masters.
In theosophy, if the blood tainted aren't removed from the gene pool of the nations, then the theosophic dream of a new world order (house) that includes the ascendancy of man (humanism) via intermingling with ascended masters of the universe in harmonious satanism will not come to pass. Therefore, for the good of the all who are one (in the same house) the great tribulation will be needed to purge the world of corruption.
All SS were occult members of the secret Nazi society.
Nazism is the marriage of theosophy and facism.
Facism being corporate socialism.
Nazism is stronger because it involves religious faith and fervor.
Nazism is around today under the guise of New Age-ism.
The theory of evolution is a very small, and temporaryly needed part of a bigger and better lie. (read about it in the new false bibles) It will morph into a new thing when the time comes.
It will morph since, too much real scientific info is being gathered and because not everyone is a naive and blind follower as are FFT, and P# and will thus reach conclusions that will deny hardcore evolution but, sustain the anichrist foundation of it. Therefore, IDism (which also is satanic and false) will force a synthesis.
Thesis:Creationism
Antithesis:Evolution
Synthesis:Theistic evolution.
Thesis:Theistic evolution
Antithesis:IDism
Synthesis:?
Hard core evolutionist--->dust bin for the obviously stupid or compliance with the neo-neo-evolutionary thought.
Joman. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
And when these 'mountains' of evolutionary evidence are actually challenged... they are nothing more than opinion and conjecture... there is huge difference here and there is absolutely no correlation. |
That's just it... They are NEVER challenged; at least not scientifically. Papers in peer-reviewed scientific journals challenging evolution based on scientific arguments are EXTREMELY hard to find; I have yet to see one, and I ask for them all the time... |
I'll have to wait until I get home to look this one up... but it seems that when articles are written that are critical of ToE... people loose their jobs. Could it be that perhaps that might be problem?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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