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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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 Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject: Water Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation! |
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Some say that water baptism is not essential to salvation. If water baptism is not, then why does the Bible declare it to be so? We have to lay aside ALL TRADITIONS and ideas of men and look to the BIBLE alone. Now let's see what the BIBLE says about water baptism...
Mark 16:16- "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved..."
John 3:5- "Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God."
Acts 2:38- "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS..."
Acts 22:16- "...Arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."
1 Peter 3:21- "The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US..."
So, as you can see, the BIBLE proclaims that baptism is an absolute necessity. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5857
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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Hardly.
John 3:16.
Romans 6:23.
Matthew 6:14-15.
Romans 10:9-10.
Romans 10:13. |
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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Hardly.
John 3:16.
Romans 6:23.
Matthew 6:14-15.
Romans 10:9-10.
Romans 10:13. |
So, are you saying that we should just "ignore" the Scriptures that say that baptism is part of salvation? Once, again you need to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD- 2 Timothy 2:15! You cannot go straight to the EPISTLES and expect to learn how to be saved from them. You have to go to the Book of Acts! Acts is the history of the New Testament Church and the Apostles' Doctrine, and the plan of salvation, ACTS 2:38 is given. Romans is an EPISTLE, a letter written to the churches that were started in the Book of Acts. These EPISTLES were written to people who were ALREADY SAVED in the Book of Acts! The EPISTLES tell us how to live and STAY saved, not how to become saved! So, learn to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD!
Now, about Romans 10:9-10, some interpret this passage to mean that salvation comes automatically if one mentally assents that Jesus rose from the dead and verbally confesses that He is Lord. However, this interpretation contradicts the truth that saving faith includes appropriation and obedience. Under this view, many who do not even claim to be living for God would be saved. Even the devils would be saved, for they know Jesus is alive, confess Him verbally, and believe in one God (Matthew 8:29; James 2:19). Clearly, such a superficial understanding of Romans 10:8-10 is inadequate. This becomes even more apparent as you continue reading Romans 10. Verse 13 says, "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." Does this mean that everyone who verbalizes the name of Jesus is saved? Certainly not, or else the name of Jesus would be merely a magical formula. Moreover, verse 16 teaches that a lack of obedience indicates a lack of faith: "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?" Many will verbally confess Jesus as Lord and call on His name, but only those who actually do God's will shall be saved (Matthew 7:21-23). Despite one's verbal confession of faith, if he refuses to obey the gospel he does not have saving faith.
If this is so, what is the correct interpretation of Romans 10:8-10? First, we must remember that Paul was writing to Christians. His purpose was to remind them of how accessible salvation really is (verse 8). He did not have to explain the new birth in detail because his readers had already experienced it. He was simply reminding them that the foundation of salvation remains faith in Christ and the gospel and in public confession of this faith to the world in which they lived. A commentator on Romans noted that Paul in this passage referred to faith that brought us to a proper relationship with Christ and to confession as the means by which we maintain that relationship.
To "confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus" means to give a truthful, verbal confession that He is Lord. For this to be truthful, however, we must submit our lives to Him as Lord and be obedient to Him. When do we first confess Jesus as Lord? Verbal confession comes when we call His name at water baptism (Acts 22:16) and when we speak in tongues at the Spirit baptism (Acts 2:4). After all, no one can confess that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Ghost (I Corinthians 12:3). In the fullest sense of this passage, no one can truly confess Jesus as Lord of his life until he receives the Spirit and lives by the Spirit's power.
When Romans 10:13 says, "Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved," it means more than merely an oral invocation of the name Jesus. Otherwise, faith itself would not be necessary. Saving faith is more than oral confession of Christ, for that act alone is not enough. (See Matthew 7:21.) Obviously Romans 10:13 describes the sincere heart's cry of someone who believes on Jesus. Oral confession is a step in that direction, but living faith and obedience are required to validate this confession.
The main point of Romans 10:13 is not to give a formula for salvation but to teach that salvation is for all. The emphasis is on whosoever. Paul quoted this verse to support his statement that "there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him" (Romans 10:12). The quotation originally appears in Joel 2:32, which follows Joel's prophecy concerning the latter-day outpouring of the Spirit upon all flesh (Joel 2:28-29) and the latter-day judgment of God (verses 30-31). Joel 2:32 explains that all who call upon Jehovah will be delivered from this judgment.
Peter applied this prophecy to the outpouring of the Spirit at Pentecost (Acts 2:21). Furthermore, Ananias commanded Paul (the writer of Romans) to call on the name of the Lord at water baptism (Acts 22:16). |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6825
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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I think you would first need to stop inputting the word 'water' in every scripture that uses the word baptism or baptize.
Your entire post and point are founded upon additions and alterations to scripture to support a position which is clearly not asserted by unaltered scripture. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5857
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: |
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| HolyGhostPower wrote: | | So, are you saying that we should just "ignore" the Scriptures that say that baptism is part of salvation? |
So are you saying that we should just ignore the Scriptures which state ways one can attain salvation with no mention of baptism? |
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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | I think you would first need to stop inputting the word 'water' in every scripture that uses the word baptism or baptize.
Your entire post and point are founded upon additions and alterations to scripture to support a position which is clearly not asserted by unaltered scripture. |
No Rev, the scriptures are not "altered." Just lay aside your TRADITIONAL beliefs and see what the BIBLE has to say about water baptism! John 3:5 specifically says "Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God." Mark 16:16- He that believeth AND is BAPTIZED shall be saved..." It doesn't say...He that believeth and is saved should be baptized! Acts 2:38 says that baptism is for the REMISSION OF SINS- what does that mean to you? Acts 22:16 says "Arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS..." and I Peter 3:21 says "...Baptism doth also now SAVE us..." Don't say that it's not talking about water baptism, because it clearly is. Read the verse preceding it, 1 Peter 3:20. It says "...in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by WATER. So, as you can see, it's talking about water baptism in 1 Peter 3:21! Lay aside all of your RELIGIOUS beliefs and go straight to the Bible! Let me end with this scripture. Galatians 3:27- "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." |
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HolyGhostPower
Big Hamster
Joined: 03 Apr 2006
Posts: 96
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | HolyGhostPower wrote: | | So, are you saying that we should just "ignore" the Scriptures that say that baptism is part of salvation? |
So are you saying that we should just ignore the Scriptures which state ways one can attain salvation with no mention of baptism? |
No. If you read those scriptures and interpret them in a way that makes baptism not part of the new birth experience, then you are interpreting them wrong, as most of Christendom does! Romans 10:8-9 and 10:13 do not mean that we do not have to be baptized...remember, the EPISTLES were written to the churches started in ACTS, and these people were already saved! The EPISTLES were the instructions to these Christians on how to stay saved and how to live a Christian life, not to tell them how to be saved, because they already were! RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD! And...re-examine the way you interpret those scriptures...they do not somehow "cancel" baptism or make it void to the New Birth. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6825
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:02 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Don't say that it's not talking about water baptism, because it clearly is |
Mark 16:16- He that believeth AND is BAPTIZED shall be saved
Acts 2:38 says that baptism is for the REMISSION OF SINS
Acts 22:16 says "Arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS
I Peter 3:21 says "...Baptism doth also now SAVE us
Galatians 3:27- "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ."
I don't see water in any of these passages, so indeed you are wrong when you state it is 'clearly' talking about water baptism.
| Quote: | | Lay aside all of your RELIGIOUS beliefs and go straight to the Bible! |
I would say the same to you my friend. I personally hold no 'religious' beliefs over that of the Word of God. I specifically left the church many years ago because of the conflict between 'religious' beleifs and God's Word. You sir, on the other hand, are promoting the religious doctrine of your denomination over that of the Word of God (as evidence by your other posting of the doctrines of the UPC). You insert 'water' into every scripture regarding baptism and try to claim that scripture which clearly does not include that designation 'clearly talks about water baptism'.
What surprises me is that your insistence on 'water' baptism denounces the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. You name yourself 'HolyGhostPower' and yet deny the power of the Holy Ghost in favor of an act of man as a requirement for salvation, and you dismiss FFT's comments about the plethora of scripture which DOES NOT include baptism as a 'requirement' for salvation.
Forego your RELIGIOUS beliefs and read the Word of God for what it actually says instead of what you have been told it 'must mean'. |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1113
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: reply |
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Rev. He is part of the oneness group.
May God bless, golfjack |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5857
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| HolyGhostPower wrote: | | No. If you read those scriptures and interpret them in a way that makes baptism not part of the new birth experience, then you are interpreting them wrong, as most of Christendom does! |
This is called a circular argument. Are you aware of what a circular argument is? Because that is what most of Christendom does.
| RevJP wrote: | | You name yourself 'HolyGhostPower' and yet deny the power of the Holy Ghost in favor of an act of man as a requirement for salvation, and you dismiss FFT's comments about the plethora of scripture which DOES NOT include baptism as a 'requirement' for salvation. |
It's a No True Christian argument. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2187
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Getting baptized in water, or go to church on Saturday, or believe in our little pet doctrine, or join our religious organization, or... the list goes on.
We like to put a requirement out there, a hoop to jump through, so that when others don't jump through it, we can feel like we're more spiritual, more obedient, closer to God, and like martyrs, suffering rejection for doing what we believe is right.
God's wisdom is so great, making salvation a free and totally undeserved gift, so no one can brag, feel superior, or get an ego boost out of it. |
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nana
Bear Cub
Joined: 01 May 2006
Posts: 625
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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To HolyGhostPower,
I would like to point out some reasoning behind why it WAS at one time important to be baptized in water.
| Quote: | | Mark 16:16- "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved..." |
The Jews held that washing in water (baptizm) was how one was clean.
Jesus told them in so many words that their cleansing only washed the outside of the cup. That was as a far as the law went, only the outside of the cup. There was shortly going to be another way and that cleansing would cleanse the inside of the cup.
Jesus declared himself to be the living water. The living water is the Word.
John 3:5, 'Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; .....the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."
Matthew 3:11, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire."
That physical water was a baptism unto repentance from the law of sin and death into grace.
Hebrews 6:1-3, "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection: not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms ........."
| Quote: | | 1 Peter 3:21- "The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US..." |
You did not finish the verse. It goes like this:
I Peter3:21, "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (NOT THE PUTTING AWAY OF THE FILTH OF THE FLESH, BUT THE ANSWER OF A GOOD CONSCIENCE TOWARD GOD,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
It is not physical water baptism that saves a man, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God that will save us in the end.
Paul saw what not graduating from the doctrine of baptism did to the Corinthians.
I Cor 1:13-17, "I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name. And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other. FOR CHRIST SENT ME NOT TO BAPTIZE, BUT TO PREACH THE GOSPEL:"
Yours in Christ, Judy |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose if Jesus said Follow me, and that means being baptized with John's baptism of repentance of sins, then I suppose the proper thing to do would be to do what Jesus did and told us what to do.
Did Jesus ever tell people to be baptized?
Was there any other baptisms going on at the time?
Was Jesus himself baptized?
I suppose you have to take it up with the Lord himself.
I myself have been baptised...twice even.
When I was a baby in the catholic church. And with submersion at 18 in the baptist church.
I may not have understood the full implications of why one must do so at the time, But if Jesus says do it, then who am I to disagree with Him?
Thats my two cents on the matter.
God Bless
Lone |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6825
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I may not have understood the full implications of why one must do so at the time, But if Jesus says do it, then who am I to disagree with Him? |
Respectfully, is that a wise course to take?
We see mention of it on this board all the time - all the 'atrocities' committed by 'the church' through out history in God's name. Part of the problem is the same view you've expressed. People did things for no other reason than that they were led to believe God said to do it and they did not try to understand the why's or the wherefor's. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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RevJP,
I stand down at this point. And I ask that you be patient with me while I look into this matter more fully.
I have studied this a little and I'm not comfortable with disagreeing or agreeing with you at this time.
I appreciate your words and I have listened to your argument.
In all sincerity.
Peace
Lone |
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