Water Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation!

Nobby · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject:

FFT,

Only three more! Laughing

FFT · Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject:

Oh, now I get it.

I think I'm going to stop posting for a while after this Wink

cballard · Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 690 Location: WV

What is the difference between John the Baptists' water baptism and the Baptism on the Holy Spirit? One didn't save and one did. John is of the OT, the last and greatest of the prophets. His works (the OT works) did not save, but the works of Jesus (the NT works) do save. This is a new Christian idea, that one does not have to be baptised with water. It is the ultimate end to the disagreement with faith vs. works. Luther, Calvin, and all the early Protestant fathers ageed water baptism was an ordinance of the NT. Baptism used to be one thing all Christians agreed on and now we don't even agree on this. It's sad. HGP, I agree with you that baptism is the initial initiation into Christianity, the family of God.

RevJP seems to be making the argument that one just needs the baptism of the Holy Spirit. I don't see anywhere where that is taught in Scripture. I see the baptism of the Holy Spirit as an addition to water baptism, but not by itself. Why is baptism of the Holy Spirit not a work? Does this just happen to a person spontainiously with not effort by another person?

What exactly is the difference between John and Jesus' baptisms? God sent John to baptise. Paul was not sent to baptise, but he did baptise some as he attests to. What is the difference between John's calling and Paul's calling?

golfjack · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: reply

Let's see what John 1:31 says. I did not know him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water. You see, Jesus used John for Him to announce to the Jews that the Messiah be made know to Israel through him. What is the sign? The descending of the Holy Spirit as a dove. Therefore, Baptism is from heaven and not from man. We need the Holy Spirit to be saved, and not water. Water Baptism is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. The blood of the Lamb saves us. It would be ridiculous to thing that Water has anything to do with saving us. Water Baptism that saves is Religious nonsense.

May God bless, golfjack

MoJo · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:02 pm Post subject:

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject:

There is a story in the book of kings...about fire and water.

Pretty interesting...

1Ki 18:25 ¶ And Elijah said unto the prophets of Baal, Choose you one bullock for yourselves, and dress [it] first; for ye [are] many; and call on the name of your gods, but put no fire [under].
1Ki 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed [it], and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But [there was] no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.
1Ki 18:27 And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he [is] a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, [or] peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.
1Ki 18:28 And they cried aloud, and cut themselves after their manner with knives and lancets, till the blood gushed out upon them.
1Ki 18:29 And it came to pass, when midday was past, and they prophesied until the [time] of the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that [there was] neither voice, nor any to answer, nor any that regarded.

1Ki 18:30 ¶ And Elijah said unto all the people, Come near unto me. And all the people came near unto him. And he repaired the altar of the LORD [that was] broken down.
1Ki 18:31 And Elijah took twelve stones, according to the number of the tribes of the sons of Jacob, unto whom the word of the LORD came, saying, Israel shall be thy name:
1Ki 18:32 And with the stones he built an altar in the name of the LORD: and he made a trench about the altar, as great as would contain two measures of seed.
1Ki 18:33 And he put the wood in order, and cut the bullock in pieces, and laid [him] on the wood, and said, Fill four barrels with water, and pour [it] on the burnt sacrifice, and on the wood.
1Ki 18:34 And he said, Do [it] the second time. And they did [it] the second time. And he said, Do [it] the third time. And they did [it] the third time.
1Ki 18:35 And the water ran round about the altar; and he filled the trench also with water.
1Ki 18:36 And it came to pass at [the time of] the offering of the [evening] sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou [art] God in Israel, and [that] I [am] thy servant, and [that] I have done all these things at thy word.

1Ki 18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.
1Ki 18:38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that [was] in the trench.
1Ki 18:39 And when all the people saw [it], they fell on their faces: and they said, The LORD, he [is] the God; the LORD, he [is] the God.

So we have the sacrifice, and the wood, and poured on top of and surrounded around it is 12 buckets of water. Which all are poured on top of 12 stones.

foundation...12 stones
then wood
then sacrifice
then water
then fire

what do you suppose would happen if the water wasn't there for the fire to dry up?
you think the water puts out the fire?
OHH Lazaus and the rich man...
just popped in my head LOL...

so maybe baptism has a more ummm protective reason.
Like maybe we won't totally be consumed in an eternal fire because water subdues fire.

Nah... the fires too hot and just licks the water up anyways...

Might reduce the temperature though...
thinking how they douse forests and houses with water hoping that the fire wont burn them up...

I thought the story was interesting anyways...

Have a good day
Lone

cballard · Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 690 Location: WV

Mojo, what about Acts 8:17 and 19:6?

golfjack · Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 5:47 am Post subject: reply

Acts 8:17 and 9:6 is talking about receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.

May God bless, golfjack

cballard · Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 690 Location: WV

I was talking about Mojo's suggestion that there is no intermediary with baptism of the Holy Spirit. These verses show that there was the laying on of hands.

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:14 am Post subject:

Maybe the difference is in the name?

Recieving the baptism of John, and being baptised in the name of Jesus.

One is outward one is inward?
if you don't first do the outside then will the inside take effect?

Act 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and [then] to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

well what are the works meet for repentance?

what about this verse?

Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

First comes water baptism which is remission of sins..
what is remission?
Then there is the baptism of fire which is the purification of sins.

So the first one puts a stop on any more accumulating and the second removes what's already there.
But if we don't stop them from accumulating then we'll be sitting in the fire for a very long time. Because we keep adding to them, rather than stopping them and turning from them.

So water washes, and fire purifies.

You ever look at those levitical laws about how they had to wash all the sacrifices before they were offered up on the altar?
Well, if we are willing to sacrifice ourselves for God, then shouldn't we first go wash and then be offered up?

What happens if they offered up dirty food to God?
Did he find this acceptable?
Well, it's really not about the animals is it. It's more about who we are and whether we want to walk God's way or our way.

I'd rather be found acceptable than take a chance and find out I'm not.

But that's just me..

God Bless
Lone

Harry3142 · Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:36 am Post subject:

Whenever I read a message board which has as its subject 'Baptism is necessary', I remember the years I spent in a denomination which taught that baptism by immersion was necessary in order to obtain salvation. But it did not end there.

After baptism by immersion was acheived, then they started saying that there was something else that needed to be done, and so it continued. No matter how much their congregants did, salvation was always 'one more deed away'. It soon became obvious as to what the real intention of the church heirarchy was. It was to get their victims (and that is what I consider them as being) into a mental state wherein they obey automatically whatever the church leaders tell them to do, while at the same time fearing that if they even ask a question concerning what is being told them, they will in effect derail their chances of gaining salvation 'sometime in the future'.

As it turned out, the denomination that I witnessed doing this was using Christianity in the same manner as a hunter uses a blind. After the heirarchy thought that they had browbeaten their followers into abject and total obedience, they showed their true colors. Their ultimate goal had been to make the laymen accept the 'holiness' of white supremacy. All civil-rights workers were to be seen as evil by all 'true' Christians; anything that happened to them, including their deaths, was to be seen as doing the Lord's work.

I myself see baptism as part of the public witness after having accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour. It does not take the place of his blood, and it is only his blood that can wash away our sins:

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."

"But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance ha had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus." (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

Mark's gospel ends at chapter 16:8 in the older and more reliable manuscripts, which means that every verse after that point was an addendum put in to soldify someone's particular teaching. As for being born of water and the Spirit, Christ Jesus was a very down-to-earth teacher, who knew that physical birth entailed the mother's expelling water. Thus our salvation first required that we be born physically, and then that we be reborn spiritually through the actions of God himself. To expect water baptism to cleanse us from sin was to go in a dry sinner and come out a wet one. It is only through our being baptized in the blood of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that we can attain the righteousness which God requires of all those who would stand before his presence. The righteousness which God requires, only God can provide.

delanoyz · Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:03 pm Post subject:

psalm90:3 · Little Guppy Joined: 07 Aug 2006 Posts: 32

The two do not always fit together. These are a few verses on who did
have a call to water baptize; Matt.3:11 Mk 1:8, lk 3:16, Jo 1:26
Acts19:2-5
We also have bro. Paul 1Cor.1:17 1Cor.10:2
Jesus in John 4:2
Glory and may the Lord bless. Very Happy

delanoyz · Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:12 am Post subject:

It seems like there is some confusion about John's baptism and the baptism that was preached by Peter, Paul, and the rest of the Apostles after Jesus ascended to Heaven. So, let's look at the scriptures that talk about them and see what they say:

Right before going back to Heaven, Jesus gives His disciples the "Great Commission" in Matthew 28:18-20:

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Jesus said that all authority in heaven and on earth was given to Him and now He is commissioning His disciples to go and make more disciples for Him. This is not a suggestion and if you remember what Jesus said when He first called His disciples to follow Him, in Mark 1:17 he said "Come, follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." Up until this point Jesus was training them to be like Him and now He is sending them out to fulfill their purpose. Notice what he tells them...go and make disciples of all nations. How? Baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything He commanded them. Then, in Acts 2:38 we see Peter giving the very 1st Gospel sermon and he says:

38Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

Ok, so now we see Peter doing exactly what Jesus told him to do. Notice how he didn't say "just believe in Jesus and say this short prayer and you will be saved." Why didn't he say that? Because that's not what Jesus told him to do. And who does "repent and be baptized, every one of you" refer to? "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off-for all whom the Lord our God will call." So, why is it that not everyone who claims to be a Christian today has repented and been baptized? Well, some people say that this is not talking about water baptism, so let's look at some examples of how people were baptized further on in Acts.

Acts 8:30-39:
30Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

31"How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

32The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture:
"He was led like a sheep to the slaughter,
and as a lamb before the shearer is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
33In his humiliation he was deprived of justice.
Who can speak of his descendants?
For his life was taken from the earth."[e]

34The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?" 35Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.

36As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him. 39When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

Ok, so here is a perfect example of Biblical conversion. You have the Ethiopian who had converted to Judaism and was on his way back from worshiping at Jerusalem and was reading Isaiah. Philip is led by the Spirit to talk to him and after asking him if he understands what he's reading, he begins to explain that the passage is talking about Jesus. "Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus." Ok, so he told the Ethiopian "the good news about Jesus," which is the Gospel. The very next thing that happens is they pass by some water and what does the Eunech say? ""Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"[f] 38And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Ok, so why would the Eunech have said this unless "the good news about Jesus" included teaching him about baptism in water? Of course, we see what happened next...Philip baptized him in water. Then the Ethiopian goes on rejoicing. Why? Because he had been saved! Do you think that he believed in Jesus when he got baptized? I would think so considering that he was baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And speaking of the Holy Spirit, according to Acts 2:38 he received forgiveness for his sins and he received the Holy Spirit when he was baptized. Let's look at another example in Acts 10:

44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Here is Peter preaching again, but this time it's to the Gentiles. Later in Acts 11:14 he is explaining what happened to the other disciples what happened and he says "He will bring you a message through which you and your household will be saved." So, just like in Acts 2:38 he is telling the Gentiles how to be saved when suddenly the Holy Spirit came on all those that were there listening and they began to speak in tongues. So, does this mean that they were saved at this point? Are they an exception to what Peter said earlier when he said "The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call?" That would make Peter and God out to be liar, so there has to be another explanation. Look at verse 47, Peter says "Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." There are 2 key points here:

1) Even though these people had the Holy Spirit poured out on them, they still needed to be baptized in water for the forgiveness of their sins and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Notice how Peter “ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.”

2)Peter said they received the Holy Spirit just as they had. They is referring to Peter and the rest of the Apostles that were there on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2. How did they receive the Holy Spirit? It reminded Peter of what happened to him, because all of the sudden the people were speaking in tongues. Acts 11 explains why this had to happen and that the promise of the Holy Spirit was for both the Jews and the Gentiles, it was just administered at different times.

Now let’s look at Acts 18:24-26 and the example of Apollos:

24Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. 25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

So, Apollos knew about Jesus and was teaching others about Him but he only knew about the baptism of John. So, Priscilla and Aquila, who were disciples of Jesus "explained to him the way of God more adequately." Let's read on in Acts 19:

1While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
3So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.

4Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

So, now we see that John's baptism was done in water and was only for repentance. It is not the same baptism that Peter and the Apostles preached. It served it's purpose: to prepare the way for Jesus. Now, baptism was to be done in Jesus name and still in water, but the difference is that it is for the forgiveness of sins and to receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is why Jesus told Nicademus in John 3:5-7:

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.'

Water and Spirit...they both happen at the same time, which is why Paul says in [b]Ephesians 4:4: 4There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. The outpouring of the Spirit that happened on the Day of Pentecost for the Jews in Acts 2 and later for the Gentiles in Acts 10 was the fulfillment of the promise God made in Joel 2:28:

28 "And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

30 I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.

31 The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.

32 And everyone who calls
on the name of the LORD will be saved;

Now, the Holy Spirit is available to anyone who repents and is baptized (in water) in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.