The Pro-Life movement's goals are fundamentally un-American

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:31 pm Post subject:

why should I care for either the "fetus" or the woman?

I care for both Fake. Every person is a child of God. God says so. whether they like to admit it or not, this is true.

And so because a child sins, I should hate the child and condemn them to hell?
This is not for me to decide whether one should or should not go to hell.
But what my role is, is to pray for those, to make good and wise decisions, those that are not because of their own inconvienences.
Many women and as it has been posted prior here, do suffer for their decissions. If they were not suffering they would not be seeking council.
And it's this suffering I wish they didn't have to partake of because of something they did.

As for the "fetus" which is a harsh technical term for an unborn child, one that is on it's way to becoming fully formed. Becasue there is life in a fetus, it is a growing entity, such as seeds in a garden, and a fire comes and burns the ground and takes the life that is growing in the ground away from it being able to emerge through the topsoil and become what it was meant to become.

I have seen and I have heard the procedure. And it leaves physical scars in a woman. I have also seen and have heard the procedure, of those we call fetuses and partial birth abortions, that there is torment to the one being aborted.
This is not mercy killing by no means. It is an act of murder.

to murder is to willingly and destructively take away life. In any form.

But do I hate the woman and wish to see her burn for such an act?
I hate that which she has committed to herself and to the unborn one.
But I still pray for her, I ppray that she doesn't make that decission in the first place, but if she does, then I do pray that it will be brought to her conscience and that she feels remorse and guilt and that she asks for forgiveness so that she can be healed from that guilt.

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

Lone,

you care for neither, you only care what your interpretation of the Bible tell you, you should believe regarding abortions.

You want your religious beliefs to be the law of the land.

Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:42 am Post subject:

Fake,
If God's Holy Laws were the Law of the land, WOW!!

No hunger, every poor person would have enough to eat, everyone would care about the next guy, and not just worry about their own gain. There would be justice in the land, criminals would be punished according to the crime, and not just tapped on the behind and sent out to do it again.
True justice would prevail for the victim and the innocent, because truth is what the land would be based on.
People would come together and help and not hold back.

Our land would be healthy, our people would be healthy, our government would be just and good.
To the benefit of all people who are good and law abiding.

OH THAT IT WERE SO!!!

and not everybody living in greed and hunger and disease and pain and guilt and injustice.

OH THAT IT WERE SO!!!

good wages, fair markets, good food and not this processed caa caa we eat, clean water that you wouldn't have to purchase, free healthcare to those in need. Compassion for the elderly, proper schooling for the children, houses that did not need repair, but if they did, then it would not be a burden to repair them.

OH THAT IT WERE SO!!!

leaders who spoke with truth and not with guile in their mouths, looking out for the unfortunate as well as the fortunate. Fair and balanced.
Not like Fox who says fair and balance but does not understand the meaning, true balance, just weights, fair trials, and not lawyers out to make themselves rich.

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

Rev.22:11, 12

thunder
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Submit to God in Christ

P1234567890 · Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:37 am Post subject:

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

Religious law of the land...

We've all seen how well that worked... if you held wrong beliefs, you were executed, burnt on the stake...
We see how well religious laws of the land works in those countries where the predominant religion is law, such as the Vatican, where women are not allowed to have any position where they are in charge, or in Iran, where you're killed because you convert, or how well it worked in Afghanistan under the Taliban rule...

Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6886 Location: USA

P123, do you read your own posts?

One should be strongly encouraged to influence their elected official and take an active part in government, but only if that influence doesn't disagree with other segments of the population...

So if a lobby influenced the government to outlaw religion that would be true-blue american since that influence does not have religious origins? Maybe we should influence the passing of legislation banning smoking, or not using seatbelts, or having to wear helmets on bikes and motorcycles, maybe we should pass laws on how much information a stockholder can elicite or share about the status of their company's business...

Heck, every law that is passed impinges upon the 'freedom' of someone, so your argument regarding being 'un-american' is completely bogus, since by that argument the very idea of american democracy would be un-american.

Now if you simply want to leave it at the idea that anything having to do with faith or religion is 'un-american' then I can deal with that. It does seem to be the point you are trying to make while trying to appear that you are not...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

FFT · Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:27 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:08 am Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:19 am Post subject:

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:09 am Post subject:

These two items abortion and gay rights, seems to be the crux of all the disputes.

Does a country depend on it's Spirit?
what I mean is , is the attitude of a country important?

The Spirit of America....

what is this? What are the beliefs and principles that this country was based on?

If it is based on the principles of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Then we should uphold those principles.
Now if certain things are done in a country that, let's say, changes it's attitude, or it's countenance. Then we should be willing to look for that cause of controversy.
What ever for the whole of the country creates this principle of life liberty and the pursuit of happiness, should be kept to.

Now things change over time. People demand more than the principles it was based on. It no longer becomes a principle for the whole nation, but becomes what we call individual rights.

What if the principles of the individual rights conflict with the principles of the country as a whole?
Does the one out weigh the many?
do ten out weigh the hundred?
does a thousand outweigh ten thousand?

Looking at battles that we have come across in the past, such as freedom from slavery, voting rights, womens lib.

When they are weighed it turns out that the benefit of these things upholds the principles of the nation and of the many.
It builds up the people morally and no one becomes high minded or better than the next guy. We are all treated equal, physically and mindfully. In that we all agree that the principle is upheld and we all walk in contentment of the spirit of the nation.

But then we come across these two things. which in themselves bring discontentment. And a good many oppose and a good many are for.
So we have come to a battle of the wills.

Does abortion bring about a benefit of contentment to the majority of the nation as a whole?
Does gay rights bring about a benefit of contentment to the majority of the nation as a whole.
Under the principles of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
I know justice is in there but for now I'm setting that on the side and just looking at what brings peace and harmony to the nation as a whole.

Now I know my answer based upon my own principles as an individual.
and many people know their answers based upon their principles as individuals.
The question is....is there a majority on one side or the other, which is in the best interest of the country as a whole.

Now you on the outside have a somewhat clearer view because the problem is not your own, but it is this nations problem. But yet you still abide by the principles of which you base your thinking upon.
And looking at things through others eyes, that are not in the problem but are looking in, is a good thing. Because sometimes being too close helps us not to see the big picture, but only our individual selves.

So I ask..as a whole...
How do we weigh and what is the weight now of those things that are causing divisions in our country.

And if the cancer is smaller than than the whole body then it needs to be cut out. Yet if the cancer is in the majority of the body, then to fight against it becomes a futile fight. Maybe it is better to let it die, so that it can cast off itself in death. And then what hopefully will emerge from that is a whole new life.

so are those things the minority are the majority of the whole?
and do they benefit or destroy the principles on which this country was founded?
trying with all my might not to be "religious" about it. But to look at it with sound reasoning.

Peace
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

FFT · Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:16 am Post subject:

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:58 am Post subject:

Yes I do FFT.
I believe that a pregnancy that is not wanted should never had occured in the first place.

That parents should really sit down and discuss the decissions that their children make about what they do with their bodies with others.

That the penalty for behaving through lust and not thinking it through rationally, would bring a penalty of giving the child up for adoption to those who seek children but can not have. Or to take on the responsibity of their decisions and become a parent.

And then my question would be...
Would this agree with the majority of the nation? would it be a benefit or a loss to the principle of the conutry as a whole.

weighing each decision in it's own light to find out what the best answer is for all.

If abortion goes against the majority and the principle, then what is the next best solution, and weigh that. And keep going until all agree on what the best solution is for the country as a whole.

You know first I believe in teaching the princple of abstinence until one is ready for that responsibility.

Second if they can't abstain then find an alternative...which today we have birth control. whether patches or pills or other kinds of devices that prevent pregnancy from occuring in the first place.

Lastly wow would probably be an act of temporary sterilization. One that can be performed on those who choose not to abstain and who choose not to take preventative measures.
But when they are mature enough to decide to have children then it can be reversed.

But to me, the bottom line to take away something by force, that didn't have a choice whether it chose to come into the picture or not, does not sit well with my principles.
And this is my individual right. One among many/few? it is still my right of my opinion. If my opinion goes against the majority and against the principles of the nation, then I should set aside my greviences and work towards what is best for the whole.

If the best for the whole is actually the worst for the whole, then should I run with them? be against them? hold my opinions to myself?
I would find the answer then in me, not to participate in the actions of those things that are against my principles.

So if I choose for no abortion, then no abortion would I have. But unless that choice walked contrary to the whole, and I was made to participate against my will. Then I guess I would have to move somewhere else in a different part of the world, which principles were based on my own.

So what am I saying here??

If you don't agree with the majority and what is in the best interest of the country based on it's principles for the whole,....

then go find yourself another country that believes in the principles that you have in yourself.

That may possibly be the final answer FFT....one never knows.

If the bad outweighs the good, then the good will eventually go somewhere else where good is, otherwise they become swallowed up in the bad, and the bad with no good in it....eeewwww....

thinking out loud here...

Peace
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.