Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby

FAQ

Contact

Profile

You would probably be Muslim if born in an Arab country

Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next

Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Islam and the Qu'ran (Koran)

Author

Message

Fake
Tiger

Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:58 pm Post subject:

Ana wrote:

What's with all the anti-Protestantism? This thread isn't about how different beliefs share similar properties; it's about how we can predict that if you were born in, say, Denmark, you would probably be a Protestant.

I think it'd be more likely that you'd be a non-deist being born in most of Scandinavia.

According to that list Sweden ranks as follows: 15 Sweden 7,741,526.
There's roughly 9 million people living in Sweden, and trust me, nowhere near 7,7 million Swedes believe in any diety, let alone the Christian variety.

Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:04 pm Post subject:

Fake wrote:

Ana wrote:

It's hard to say exactly where those numbers came from. On my birth certificate, it says that I'm Lutheran, even though I'm obviously not.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Fake
Tiger

Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:23 pm Post subject:

CHECK LINK

Quote:

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 64% of those in Sweden do not believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 74% of Swedes said that they did not believe in “a personal God.” According to Greeley (2003), 46% of Swedes do not believe in God, although only 17% self-identify as “atheist.” According to Froese (2001), 69% of Swedes are either atheist or agnostic. According to Gustafsoon and Pettersson (2000), 82% of Swedes do not believe in a “personal God.” According to Davie (1999), 85% of Swedes do not believe in God.

According to Norris and Inglehart (2004) 48% of those in Denmark do not believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 49% of Danes do not believe in “a personal God.” According to Greeley (2003), 43% of Danes do not believe in God, although only 15% self-identify as “atheist.” According to Froese (2001), 45% of Danes are either atheist or agnostic. According to Gustafsson and Pettersson (2000), 80% of Danes do not believe in a “personal God.”

Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject:

Fake wrote:

CHECK LINK

Quote:

Wow, nothing but blonde babes, and they're all atheists... It's enough to get a guy to believe in heaven...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Tiptronic
Kitten

Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143

Location: On the net

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:32 am Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Tiptronic wrote:

And that would also apply to converts? They were not born into Islam. No-one in this free and democratic society is forcing it upon them. They are of an age where they can decide for themselves, where they can weigh things up and make informed choices. Free-will.

What percentage of the total population of any given major religion consists of converts (besides Buddhism, I think it's a special case)? Is it a number worth considering, or is it negligible?

Tiptronic wrote:

My point - if a religion had its converts coming from the uneducated village folk, well you could have an argument there. But to see such a great number of converts from the West, well thats another thing.

What's this great number? Do you have statistics?

Remember, we're talking about majorities, here, not special cases.

P1234567890 says:

"Their parents, their teachers, and their society assigned their religious beliefs to them."

And my response was with respect to that. We wernt talking of numbers here. P was saying something about how a persons religion is decided for them by which family their born into. I disagreed with that idea, on the basis that converts arent born into Islam, yet choose to accept it.

You and the general thread may have been talking about "majorities", but me and P had slightly side-tracked and were talkin about the above.

So, i fail to see your point as you are not quite following what me and P are discussing.

Thanks

-Tiptronic

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096

Location: Memphis

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject:

I'm just saying that relative to the claim P was making, converts don't really make much of a dent in the predictions. P said "extremely high accuracy," not 100% accuracy.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 6:25 pm Post subject:

Tiptronic wrote:

And my response was with respect to that. We wernt talking of numbers here. P was saying something about how a persons religion is decided for them by which family their born into. I disagreed with that idea, on the basis that converts arent born into Islam, yet choose to accept it.

What percentage of Muslims on the planet satisfy BOTH of the following two criteria:

a) They were not born into a Muslim family, but rather became Muslims by converting.

b) They were not born in a Muslim country?

I conjecture that the answer is less than 1%.

The number of non-Muslims converting to Islam in the West is virtually nil.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096

Location: Memphis

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject:

I looked up some statistics (1990 vs 2001).

Of the big religions, Islam is one of the fastest growing in the US (+109% 1990-2000). However, as of 2000, they make up just 0.5% of the total population.

Interestingly, deism made a 717% jump, from 6,000 members to 49,000 (not that deism is really much of a religion).
Sikhism jumped 338% from 13,000 to 57,000.
"New Age" ( Laughing

) made a 240% increase, 20,000 to 68,000.
Baha'i made a 200% increase, 28,000 to 84,000.
Native American religions made a suprising 119% increase, 47,000 to 103,000.
Hinduism made +237%, 227,000 to 766,000.
Buddhism made a +170%, 401,000 to 1,082,000.
Judaism's down 10%, 3,137,000 to 2,831,000.
"Nonreligious/Secular" made a 110% increase, 13,116,000 to 27,539,000 (13.2% of US population).
Christianity managed a 5% increase, 151,225,000 to 159,030,000.
Reference

P1234567890 wrote:

I conjecture that the answer is less than 1%.

Even if we were to assume that every Muslim in the United States was a convert, that would only be .000849% of the Muslim population.

Flashman
Pit Bull

Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371

Location: MO

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:09 pm Post subject:

Ana wrote:

You'll note I've simplified things a bit - this is because I'm also not a conversion expert. I think conversion tactics are similar to advertising tactics (only lower scale, due to funding). This includes missionary work, by the way. Religions are all about spreading the word. Subjecting fish to repeated exposure to nets get you more of them! It's all just a big ad campaign, if you ask me!

Well, I would agree that some form of exposure would influence them for sure. Perhaps, if one were exposed to, say, only Buddhism, then they would probably lean toward that religion. Maybe, they'd do some research to see "which one" offered the best/most comfort...or whatever. Since most Christians are excited about spreading the news, they will probably see a lot of that type of "propaganda".

FFT, in the post after this one of yours, also mentions parental pressure. I don't know if I'd agree with the normally accepted form of the word "pressure", but exposure would most certainly play a role. My kids aren't pressured (coerced) into anything, but they are most certainly exposed to it a lot, and even told that other religions are false (Before you jump all over me, FFT, this is passive teaching not coercion). They are my kids and they, until they can reach an informed decision of their own, live by the "rules" of the household - which means they go to church with me. I do allow them to go to church with their school-friends if they stay over the night before (two Catholics, the rest Protestant). I'm sure, one day, they will have reason to question their faith and will use their own efforts to either confirm what they've been taught or refute it to the point they will seek an alternative. (Like the "rich dude" example I gave).

Also, I've seen proselytizing Christians who become "religion-for-profit" individuals or groups or resort to more heavy-handed "hellfire and brimstone" techniques (and there is a place for that) before they even create a relationship with someone. Christianity is best "advertised" by the Holy Spirit.
_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you.

FFT
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096

Location: Memphis

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:26 pm Post subject:

Flashman wrote:

My kids aren't pressured (coerced) into anything, but they are most certainly exposed to it a lot, and even told that other religions are false (Before you jump all over me, FFT, this is passive teaching not coercion).

It's coercion if you simply assert that other religions are false. Do you explain why they are false? What? I don't really get how outright being told that other religions are false (implying that yours is true) is anything but coercion.

Flashman wrote:

They are my kids and they, until they can reach an informed decision of their own, live by the "rules" of the household - which means they go to church with me.

This is pressure. Forcing them to go to church isn't going to let them reach an "informed decision of their own."

This is admittedly an extreme example, but what would you call a father who within the "rules of his household" included that female children had to have sex with him? What you've said would imply that this isn't pressure at all.

Flashman
Pit Bull

Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371

Location: MO

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 8:47 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Flashman wrote:

They are my kids and they, until they can reach an informed decision of their own, live by the "rules" of the household - which means they go to church with me.

I must admit I cringed when I typed what I did about "pressure", but I did so honestly. Every religion on the planet says others are false, so why should that surprise you? I knew you'd jump all over it because of your shallow understanding. Full of words empty of heart.

Children cannot reach an informed decision until they can understand. Until that time, they will just have to "hang with dad". And wouldn't it be stupid of me to enjoy the love of my Lord and not share it with them? As an atheist, I'd expect you not to understand that, but as you are atheist, I am Christian and do out of love for my children, that which you would also.

In your disgusting extreme example, you have selected the acts of a deviant liar (if he professed to be Christian). Your post isn't meant to rebut anything I've said, only to enflame and by it's extremity to degrade the principals of Christianity with an act which you KNOW is not taught anywhere, in any religion. I can write my "rules" down and set them before any magistrate, anywhere and they would smile upon me. You, on the other hand, use your atheism to demonize that which you cannot possibly understand. By its extremity, you have gone beyond discussion and into absolute stupidity!!! You should be ashamed for even tying it into this thread!!! FFT, you have finally reached the epitome of stupid!!
_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:02 pm Post subject:

Flashman wrote:

Every religion on the planet says others are false, so why should that surprise you?

It doesn't really surprise me so much as astound me. The only reason you're a Christian is because you happened to be born into a Christian family and / or society (disclaimer: I am assuming that you are like most people out there; if this doesn't describe you, then just assume I'm talking about 'most people'). Had you been born in Saudi Arabia, you'd almost certainly be a Muslim. Had you been born in Japan, you'd probably be Shinto or Buddhist. Had you been born on a native reservation, you'd have a soft spot for the Great Bear or something like that.

How can you be so sure that your religion is true and all others are false when you take into account the MASSIVE role the longitude and latitude (ie. pure chance) of your birth played in selecting your religion?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe

Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644

Location: Victoria, Canada

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject:

FFT wrote:

Native American religions made a suprising 119% increase, 47,000 to 103,000.

I like a lot of ideas from Native American religions; they have some really great ideas about respecting nature and taking into account the web of life that connects the entire planet. They (quite accurately) say that when we hurt the planet or some ecosystem, we hurt ourselves because we are part of it. In that sense, the native religions are becoming more and more relevant, so the increase probably isn't that surprising.

On the other hand, native creation myths are some of the most ridiculous out there. They make great stories, but there are actually people out there who believe them to be literally true. For example, the Haida of B.C. believe that man came from a clam shell.

Someone even got a picture of the whole thing happening; check it out:

http://encarta.msn.com/media_701508425_761570777_-1_1/The_Raven_and_the_First_Men.html

The whole story sounds ridiculous until you consider the alternative meaning for the word 'clam', and where people actually come from. Wink

_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous.

Flashman
Pit Bull

Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371

Location: MO

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

Flashman wrote:

Every religion on the planet says others are false, so why should that surprise you?

You aren't the least astounded, so why pretend, P? You've known for some time now, that everyone with a faith-based belief system has a "mine and only mine" doctrine. As to your question about how can I be sure? I can be just as sure of my stand as you, that you believe there is no God. As to the geographical location, it's no secret that the belief system of the parents are the largest contributor to the faith of the offspring. I don't deny that if I were born in Saudi Arabia, I'd probably lean toward Islam if not a card-carrying member. Also, being born in a "free" country helps, too. (and for the record, my parents never took me to church - they were too busy).

If every country in the world would allow all "religions" to be presented, I'm betting on Jesus Christ and His awesome teachings and example to prevail. But, hey, that's just my opinion. Wink

_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you.

Flashman
Pit Bull

Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371

Location: MO

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 9:48 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 wrote:

FFT wrote:

Native American religions made a suprising 119% increase, 47,000 to 103,000.

P, don't leave us hangin'. What's the alternative meaning for the word clam?
_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you.

Display posts from previous:

	Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Islam and the Qu'ran (Koran)	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next
Page 3 of 4