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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: |
P, are you sure you don't understand? I smell something that doesn't smell like lack of understanding. However, I may just be paranoid, so:
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There's no need to be suspicious; I just didn't understand the point you were trying to make from the wording of your answer. But now I understand.
| Flashman wrote: |
That supposes that I (being the person who'd never been born) had a look back and said, "Gosh, I'm glad I was aborted Lord, here I am with you." The second side being impossible to look back and say anything, since I never existed. The second side is a non-relevant.
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Not really. Let's say there are two ways to make someone not exist:
1. Contraception
2. Abortion
Contraception isn't just an abstract concept; it is a real thing that causes MILLIONS (BILLIONS?) of pregnancies not to happen. In other words, without the contraception, there would be people alive today that aren't. This means that in a very real way, contraception killed these people before they were conceived.
Abortion is very similar. Without abortion, there would be people alive today that aren't. The parallels between the two are very strong with respect to causing people not to exist.
Take any individual pregnancy. It can be prevented by contraception, or it can be terminated by abortion. These are two very real ways that can be used to cause a person to not exist.
So when you say,
| Flashman wrote: |
The second side being impossible to look back and say anything, since I never existed. The second side is a non-relevant.
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I would argue that it is HIGHLY relevant. Babies that were caused to not exist via contraception WOULD have existed if the contraception weren't used. In that sense, contraception stopped the babies from going to heaven. Now that's a really heinous crime. Abortion destroys the life, but not the afterlife. Contraception destroys BOTH the life AS WELL as the afterlife.
Do you see my point? Killing someone isn't so bad, because at least they get to spend eternity basking in the glory of God. But causing someone to not exist via contraception means that they never even get to go to heaven. So from a Christian perspective, shouldn't robbing someone of their afterlife be considered REALLY bad? I mean, MUCH worse than murdering them?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
Let's say there are two ways to make someone not exist:
1. Contraception
2. Abortion
Contraception isn't just an abstract concept; it is a real thing that causes MILLIONS (BILLIONS?) of pregnancies not to happen. |
P, I'm really beginning to think you've had a mental event, here. You are hypothesizing a "non-thing", and if you insist upon this line of discussion I'm afraid I'm going to have to insist that you commit yourself for treatment...for your own good. 
I say this because, I cause (all by my self) a lot of non children to not happen regularly. All by myself! And I'm sick of it, but what can I do? I love kids, but my dates don't. However, my little spermies don't know this and ... well, suffice it to say, I'm thinking on a monthly basis there are about 30 non-kids produced which won't be aborted and going to heaven. (please forgive my sarcasm, I'm just on dumdum overload).
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Abortion is very similar. Without abortion, there would be people alive today that aren't. |
Abortion is only similar to my parallel scenario about the guy getting choked-blue to his grave. Without abortion there would be about 40 million kids alive today that were murdered. I'm on top of this one.
| P1234567890 wrote: | | The parallels between the two are very strong with respect to causing people not to exist. |
There is no parallel. There's living and there's not-even-a-thread-of-life. There might be adjacent or tangent, but no parallel with aborting a "fetus" and ... nothing. There is only Monty Python.
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Take any individual pregnancy. It can be prevented by contraception, or it can be terminated by abortion. These are two very real ways that can be used to cause a person to not exist. |
P, you're killing me!! If you take any individual pregnancy, you have a pregnancy. If you have contraception, you don't have any pregnancy! Now stop it, before I have to call the police!! I'm so starting to like you and now this happens. 
| P1234567890 wrote: | So when you say,
| Flashman wrote: |
The second side being impossible to look back and say anything, since I never existed. The second side is a non-relevant.
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I would argue that it is HIGHLY relevant. Babies that were caused to not exist via contraception WOULD have existed if the contraception weren't used. In that sense, contraception stopped the babies from going to heaven. Now that's a really heinous crime. Abortion destroys the life, but not the afterlife. Contraception destroys BOTH the life AS WELL as the afterlife. |
Abortion does destroy, you are correct, but contraception prevents. There is no parallel, no comparison, no correlation, no....no...no anything! The only thing HIGHLY in this entire discussion thread is "highly likely to make me commit suicide."
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Do you see my point? Killing someone isn't so bad, because at least they get to spend eternity basking in the glory of God. But causing someone to not exist via contraception means that they never even get to go to heaven. So from a Christian perspective, shouldn't robbing someone of their afterlife be considered REALLY bad? I mean, MUCH worse than murdering them? |
P, my friend, the temptation to sarcasticize all over this is overwhelming, but I just can't continue. The best I can do here is love you through it.
_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: |
Abortion does destroy, you are correct, but contraception prevents.
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Fine, contraception PREVENTS a child that otherwise would have been conceived from being conceived. It therefore also prevents that child from living its life and going to heaven. Therefore contraception causes someone who otherwise would have gone to heaven not to go to heaven. It robs them of their eternal afterlife in the presence of God. Isn't that bad?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Flashman wrote: |
Abortion does destroy, you are correct, but contraception prevents.
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Fine, contraception PREVENTS a child that otherwise would have been conceived from being conceived. It therefore also prevents that child from living its life and going to heaven. Therefore contraception causes someone who otherwise would have gone to heaven not to go to heaven. It robs them of their eternal afterlife in the presence of God. Isn't that bad? |
P, I truly do see where you are coming from, and I know you are being sincere. I apologize if I seem to be berating you, I guess it's the comedian in me. But I can't debate this. It's just not harmonizing for me. I am going to be spending a bit more time learning about Apple Pie's stuff, tho'.
_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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I have always said i think abortion is murder in the sence that you would be going againt God and killing his child; but i've come to a different understanding now,
we must be born twice to get in the heaven right
the first birth i here on earth, that is when we are born to sin
the second is when we are born again with christ and become children of God.
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Christina |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1127
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jun 11, 2006 5:42 pm Post subject: reply |
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Just another excuse Christna. What about God's plan for the child?
May God bless, golfjack |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 12:52 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| golfjack wrote: | | Just another excuse Christna. What about God's plan for the child? |
God knows it's going to be aborted, though, right?
Why would God make a "plan" for a human which isn't going to exist? |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:25 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| FFT wrote: | | golfjack wrote: | | Just another excuse Christna. What about God's plan for the child? |
God knows it's going to be aborted, though, right?
Why would God make a "plan" for a human which isn't going to exist? |
...not to mention that obviously God could save all the abortion victims if He wanted. In fact, it would be a trivial matter for someone of His infinite powers. He doesn't save them, so really He must not care all *THAT* much.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: Re: reply |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | golfjack wrote: | | Just another excuse Christna. What about God's plan for the child? |
God knows it's going to be aborted, though, right?
Why would God make a "plan" for a human which isn't going to exist? |
...not to mention that obviously God could save all the abortion victims if He wanted. In fact, it would be a trivial matter for someone of His infinite powers. He doesn't save them, so really He must not care all *THAT* much. |
Forgive me for jumping in here Christina, if you have anything more, please add it. I'm just putting my two-cents here because I just feel like sticking in an answer.
When God makes a plan, that's what it is. We, ourselves interfere with those plans (as in aborting the child) on a regular basis. We interfere and other, outside influences, also interfere. God's perfect plan is just that...Perfect. We can't follow His plan perfectly, as much as He'd like us to. He let's us make the choice whether to do that or not.
God could "force" the plan through by not allowing us to make choices, but that's a whole 'nuther argument. God could save all the aborted children, but He chooses not to. But not because He doesn't care. He does care, and those who don't follow the plan by killing His children will be dealt with.
The fact that God is omniescient (sp?) only means that He knows ahead of time what our choices will be. I'm sure that God has stepped in from time-to-time to change the heart of the mother to stop an abortion. He would be much more pleased if we'd just stop killing His kids (messing with His plans, if you will).
I suspect that this argument really doesn't make it for you, P, because you have to understand God, first. But I can see why you'd wonder about that.
_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | When God makes a plan, that's what it is. We, ourselves interfere with those plans (as in aborting the child) on a regular basis. |
Then God's rather masochistic, isn't he? He knows what we're going to do but makes plans that he knows won't be carried out?
Do you even have scriptural support for this idea?
| Flashman wrote: | | The fact that God is omniescient (sp?) only means that He knows ahead of time what our choices will be. |
Exactly.
| Flashman wrote: | | I'm sure that God has stepped in from time-to-time to change the heart of the mother to stop an abortion. |
Then what use is "free will?" If God's willing to step in to save a fetus, why is there still the Problem of Evil?
| Flashman wrote: | | He would be much more pleased if we'd just stop killing His kids (messing with His plans, if you will). |
So, you know God's plan? |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | When God makes a plan, that's what it is. We, ourselves interfere with those plans (as in aborting the child) on a regular basis. |
Then God's rather masochistic, isn't he? He knows what we're going to do but makes plans that he knows won't be carried out? |
God's plans were made before the universe was created. It's when we're entered into the plan that the mucking up comes about. He makes plans that He knows won't be carried out "perfectly". I make business plans, too. (eeeechhh!) The best laid plans of mice and men gang aft aglee.
I know that my daughter is going to do something wrong after I've told her not to. I could lock her up in her room instead of letting her go out with her friends, but I've given her all the information necessary not to do what I consider to be wrong. Am I masochistic by letting her make her own choices? Knowing, that she might toke up and get busted if she ignores my warnings? God knows even more detail, but I know she's going to test me and my will.
| FFT wrote: | | Do you even have scriptural support for this idea? |
I really don't think it needs it, but if you insist, I'll find some for you. I think you've seen it before. I'll bet you could even find some support yourself, without me. 
| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | I'm sure that God has stepped in from time-to-time to change the heart of the mother to stop an abortion. |
Then what use is "free will?" If God's willing to step in to save a fetus, why is there still the Problem of Evil? |
FFT, I've seen this (or very similar) question answered for you before. My answer to you would only fuel your argumentative nature, and my answer would be for naught.
| FFT wrote: | | Flashman wrote: | | He would be much more pleased if we'd just stop killing His kids (messing with His plans, if you will). |
So, you know God's plan? |
I know some of His plans, yes. His plan for salvation, His plan for the Jews, His plan for marriage, etc. Only He knows the Master plan.
_________________
You may not believe in God, but He believes in you. |
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nobody important
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:05 am Post subject: |
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Some Contraception lives up to its name..prevents conception.... no child is killed
However some contraception prevent they zygote from implanting in the womb this contraception does kill a child
All forms of artifical Contraception is wrong according to the Catholic church... however some pro lifers who are not catholic do not see contraception that prevents contraception as wrong the other abortifficant contraception is opposed by pro life. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: | Some Contraception lives up to its name..prevents conception.... no child is killed
However some contraception prevent they zygote from implanting in the womb this contraception does kill a child
All forms of artifical Contraception is wrong according to the Catholic church... however some pro lifers who are not catholic do not see contraception that prevents contraception as wrong the other abortifficant contraception is opposed by pro life. |
Let me get this straight... As soon as a sperm and egg join, you consider that to be a human being and an unborn child, even though it's only a single cell... But the second before they've joined, when they're still two cells (one sperm cell and one egg cell), you consider that to not be a human being?
Why on Earth isn't the sperm + egg an 'unborn child'. You seem to think it's a sin to try to use contraception to keep them apart, so why? I realize that this is a silly question, but your definition of 'unborn child' is so extreme and unreasonable that I feel I have to ask.
For that matter, why isn't it already an unborn child when the sperm is still in the father's body and the egg is still in the mother's body?
Why is the twinkle in the mailman's eye not an unborn child?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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nobody important
Young Wolf
Joined: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 517
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Let me get this straight... As soon as a sperm and egg join, you consider that to be a human being and an unborn child, even though it's only a single cell... But the second before they've joined, when they're still two cells (one sperm cell and one egg cell), you consider that to not be a human being?
Why on Earth isn't the sperm + egg an 'unborn child'. You seem to think it's a sin to try to use contraception to keep them apart, so why? I realize that this is a silly question, but your definition of 'unborn child' is so extreme and unreasonable that I feel I have to ask.
For that matter, why isn't it already an unborn child when the sperm is still in the father's body and the egg is still in the mother's body?
Why is the twinkle in the mailman's eye not an unborn child? |
yes you pretty much get the picture!
Why the sperm & egg by their selves are not a human being is because the Egg has the same DNA as the mother, the eggs are living matter sustained by the mother they are not growing or adapting to the souroundings see link.. The Sperm has the DNA as the father and although the sperm is also living they are not alive in the full sense of the word they are not growing or developing.. Take the egg from the mother and its DNA matches the mothers, it is part of the mother same too with the sperm the DNA matches the father. Another point a human being has 46 chromosomes a sperm has only 23 and an Egg only 23
However at conception/fertalisation the DNA of the Father fuses to the DNA of the mother to the DNA of the father 23 + 23 = 46 = a unique individual human being different from his/her mother and his/her father.
At the moment of conception all these things and probably more are present.
1. Skin Colour
2. Hair
3. Hair Colour
4. Eyes
5. Eye colour
6. A personality (inc behaviour pattern)
7. Speach Pattern
8. Gender
9. Teath
10. Arms
11. Legs
12. Central nervous system
so on and so forth.
Granted the leg is not physically formed... but that dosnt mean it isnt their
Granted the eye is not physically formed but that dosnt mean the eye and eye colour is not their.
This unique living Growing human being is born (brought into existance) at the very moment of conception when the 23 chromosomes from the father fuse with the 23 Chromosomes from the Mother to bring into existance a new living growing human being uniquly distinguishable from both his/her mother & Father with the full 46 chromosomes. It is quite an awsome metobolic reaction.... certainly more awsome than passing through a birth canal or extracted from the womb by cesarian section... the moment of birth is the point where our eyes can see without the aid of instruments the wonder of creation in a new born baby and it is an awsome experiance for us... but in regards to the true nature of human life its quite nothing compaired to the moment of conception/fertalisation.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/life |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Dec 17, 2006 9:04 am Post subject: |
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| nobody important wrote: |
However at conception/fertalisation the DNA of the Father fuses to the DNA of the mother to the DNA of the father 23 + 23 = 46 = a unique individual human being different from his/her mother and his/her father.
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But you could say this about a dog fetus as well! So why don't you consider it to be multiple-murder when someone kills a pregnant dog?!?
| nobody important wrote: |
At the moment of conception all these things and probably more are present.
1. Skin Colour
2. Hair
3. Hair Colour
4. Eyes
5. Eye colour
6. A personality (inc behaviour pattern)
7. Speach Pattern
8. Gender
9. Teath
10. Arms
11. Legs
12. Central nervous system
so on and so forth.
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This is true of every single cell in every single living creature on the entire planet. You aren't pointing out anything special about humans here. All you're pointing out is that DNA and life on Earth are pretty cool.
This is NOT an argument for why humans are special and why killing fetuses should be considered murder.
Why is it murder to abort a human fetus, but not murder to abort, say, a horse fetus?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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