 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Do you think Islam comes from God? |
| Yes |
|
17% |
[ 3 ] |
| No |
|
82% |
[ 14 ] |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
|
 Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: |
 |
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
Some Muslim scholars believe FGC is practiced as a result of ignorance and misconceived religious fervor rather than for reasons of true religious doctrine--and any religious basis for the practice is denied. Many Arab Muslims interpret different passages as being in opposition to FGC, and believe the practice to be un-Islamic.
As Amnesty Inter'nl says: "FGC predates Islam and is not practised by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension." |
I think that you're just proving my point here. My point was that culture strongly influences religion. In the case of North Africa, FGM was part of the culture long before Islam came along, and then after Islam took over, FGM continued DESPITE the fact that it is definitely not justified by the Koran.
In other words, the culture strongly influences in the way the people practice their religion, just like I sad. |
You didnt prove anything.
So FGM was there before Islam.
Islam came.
Therefore FGM now became a part of Islam?
Sorry, but i still dont see how culture has an affect on religion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Tiptronic wrote: |
You didnt prove anything.
So FGM was there before Islam.
Islam came.
Therefore FGM now became a part of Islam?
Sorry, but i still dont see how culture has an affect on religion. |
Clearly North African Muslims think that FGM is compatible with the Koran.
If you go to North Africa and ask the people why they practice FGM, they will give you all sorts of reasons, including religious ones. Stuff like, "This is what good Muslims do."
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If you ask a Christian American, there's a great possibility they'll answer that MGM is what the Bible teaches, when it in fact discourages such henious practice.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 1:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hooray for Paul.
There was a good [cowpoo]! episode about circumcision. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Fake wrote: | If you ask a Christian American, there's a great possibility they'll answer that MGM is what the Bible teaches, when it in fact discourages such henious practice.
|
I agree that the Koran forbids FGM, and that the Bible forbids MGM, but that really isn't the point. Religion is not some kind of abstract thing that is studied in some ivory tower somewhere. Quite the contrary, religion is highly applied, and NO religion ANYWHERE is a perfect incarnation of what its holy book preaches.
For that reason, it is ALWAYS possible to defend a religion against ANY attack by saying, "Yes, but that is not what the <insert holy book name here> actually teaches. In that sense, this defense is trivial and not to be accepted.
We shouldn't judge religions by some sort of abstract ideal; a religion should be judged on how well it is implemented. For that reason, it is ok to condemn Islam for the practice of FGM, because obviously the religion is not strong enough to defend women against it.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
You didnt prove anything.
So FGM was there before Islam.
Islam came.
Therefore FGM now became a part of Islam?
Sorry, but i still dont see how culture has an affect on religion. |
Clearly North African Muslims think that FGM is compatible with the Koran.
If you go to North Africa and ask the people why they practice FGM, they will give you all sorts of reasons, including religious ones. Stuff like, "This is what good Muslims do." |
What? You are failing to prove how culture influences religion.
And if you asked them that very same question before Islam arrived there, what would be the response?
Would their response be the same in realting it to Islam, or would they pin it on their culture and traditions? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 7:00 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tiptronic wrote: |
What? You are failing to prove how culture influences religion.
And if you asked them that very same question before Islam arrived there, what would be the response?
Would their response be the same in realting it to Islam, or would they pin it on their culture and traditions? |
Listen, the very fact that Christians in different areas and Muslims in different areas worship differently than other Christians and other Muslims shows that culture influences religion.
Just look at all of the weird Catholic rituals in Spain. They're totally different than the Catholic rituals in, say, Boston.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
What? You are failing to prove how culture influences religion.
And if you asked them that very same question before Islam arrived there, what would be the response?
Would their response be the same in realting it to Islam, or would they pin it on their culture and traditions? |
Listen, the very fact that Christians in different areas and Muslims in different areas worship differently than other Christians and other Muslims shows that culture influences religion.
Just look at all of the weird Catholic rituals in Spain. They're totally different than the Catholic rituals in, say, Boston. |
No, it seems you cant prove the point.
So some Muslims believe in 1 God, others in 2, and some in 3?
The little details of religion vary from place to place, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN CULTURE HAD AN INFLUENCE IN IT.
These are due to different Muslims following different Imams, some from the Hanafi school, others from the Shaafi, etc. But to say there own culture, the way of life that suited them best, the way they favoured, they liked, influenced their religion, is absurd.
-Tiptronic |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
Culture has no influence on religion?
Explain Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, then. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tiptronic wrote: |
So some Muslims believe in 1 God, others in 2, and some in 3?
|
No, I never said anything of the sort. Muslims agree on the major stuff, but there are minor differences from place to place.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
The little details of religion vary from place to place, BUT THAT DOESNT MEAN CULTURE HAD AN INFLUENCE IN IT.
These are due to different Muslims following different Imams, some from the Hanafi school, others from the Shaafi, etc. But to say there own culture, the way of life that suited them best, the way they favoured, they liked, influenced their religion, is absurd.
|
No, it certainly isn't absurd. Look at Catholics in Spain. They perform all sorts of rituals that aren't performed in France, or Italy, or Portugal, or the U.S.A. If Catholic worship can be influenced by cultural differences, then certainly Islam can as well.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
l.t.21378
Tadpole
Joined: 04 Jun 2006
Posts: 25
Location: New Jersey, U.S.A.
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | Yes, of course there are bad things in the Koran.
Have you read the Old Testament lately? In it, God is malicious and spiteful. He kills innocent people by the thousands.
I think that condemning the Koran while supporting the Old Testament is an extremely contradictory position to take.
But if you're trying to get people to agree with you that Jesus is a nicer, more compassionate, more open, and more accepting guy than Mohammed, then you can add me to your list. |
I think you fail to realise that God was passing his judgment on wicked nations. He used, for example, the nation of Israel as a tool for judgment to punish the heathen nations. Israel was the only holy nation at that time and the rest of the world was wicked. Then again when Israel failed to walk in God's footsteps, he used other heathen nations against them to smite them.
"And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
And when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver you your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;
Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.
And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you.
And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours.
And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it.
And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste."
Leviticus 26: 25-33
Execution is not murder.
_________________
"Let God be true and every man a liar." Romans 3:4 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| l.t.21378 wrote: | | I think you fail to realise that God was passing his judgment on wicked nations. He used, for example, the nation of Israel as a tool for judgment to punish the heathen nations. |
I think you fail to realize that execution is not a punishment. You can't really learn from getting killed.
| l.t.21378 wrote: | | Execution is not murder. |
It is if it's unlawful execution  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| P1234567890, you are mistaken when you claim that Catholics are doing different rituals in different countries. I've been to masses in Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Croatia, Yugoslavia (at the time), and other places. The mass is the same throughout the world. Our priest is from India. He didn't have to receive instruction on how to say the mass. It is the same as it is in India. The language may change, but not the form. That argument doesn't work to show culture influences religion. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6104
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:41 am Post subject: |
|
|
| There's more to Catholicism than mass. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7667
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 4:46 am Post subject: |
|
|
| cballard wrote: | | P1234567890, you are mistaken when you claim that Catholics are doing different rituals in different countries. I've been to masses in Spain, Portugal, Italy, France, Croatia, Yugoslavia (at the time), and other places. The mass is the same throughout the world. Our priest is from India. He didn't have to receive instruction on how to say the mass. It is the same as it is in India. The language may change, but not the form. That argument doesn't work to show culture influences religion. |
I for one have never seen any Semana Santa celebrations in Canada like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semana_Santa .
I really don't understand why you and Triptonic are so opposed to the idea that culture influences religion, especially when it is so obvious that it's true.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
