The Bible clearly states that killing a fetus is not murder

got_truth? · Ferret Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 107

Okay, I'm no Doctor and they still don't understand the miracle of twins. When it seperates it takes on life also so it is a soul as well. Remember again that soul simply means life. That's as far as I'm going with this one, I don't know how to explain it any better without going into medical terms.

P1234567890 · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject:

FFT · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject:

got_truth? · Ferret Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 107

Well now that's a whole other subject. Of course the Bible supports that a soul is simply the life and not an immortal force within us.
What does the Bible say that helps us to understand what the soul is?

Gen. 2:7: “Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Notice that this does not say that man was given a soul but that he became a soul, a living person.) (The part of the Hebrew word here rendered “soul” is ne´phesh. KJ, AS, and Dy agree with that rendering. RS, JB, NAB read “being.” NE says “creature.” Kx reads “person.”)

1 Cor. 15:45: “It is even so written: ‘The first man Adam became a living soul.’ The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.” (So the Christian Greek Scriptures agree with the Hebrew Scriptures as to what the soul is.) (The Greek word here translated “soul” is the accusative case of psy·khe´. KJ, AS, Dy, JB, NAB, and Kx also read “soul.” RS, NE, and TEV say “being.”)

1 Pet. 3:20: “In Noah’s days . . . a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water.” (The Greek word here translated “souls” is psy·khai´, the plural form of psy·khe´. KJ, AS, Dy, and Kx also read “souls.” JB and TEV say “people”; RS, NE, and NAB use “persons.”)

Gen. 9:5: “Besides that, your blood of your souls [or, “lives”; Hebrew, from ne´phesh] shall I ask back.” (Here the soul is said to have blood.)

Josh. 11:11: “They went striking every soul [Hebrew, ne´phesh] that was in it with the edge of the sword.” (The soul is here shown to be something that can be touched by the sword, so these souls could not have been spirits.)

Where does the Bible say that animals are souls?

Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 25: “God went on to say: ‘Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls* . . . ’ And God proceeded to create the great sea monsters and every living soul that moves about, which the waters swarmed forth according to their kinds, and every winged flying creature according to its kind. . . . And God went on to say: ‘Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds . . . ’ And God proceeded to make the wild beast of the earth according to its kind and the domestic animal according to its kind and every moving animal of the ground according to its kind.” (*In Hebrew the word here is ne´phesh. Ro reads “soul.” Some translations use the rendering “creature[s].”)

Lev. 24:17, 18: “In case a man strikes any soul [Hebrew, ne´phesh] of mankind fatally, he should be put to death without fail. And the fatal striker of the soul [Hebrew, ne´phesh] of a domestic animal should make compensation for it, soul for soul.” (Notice that the same Hebrew word for soul is applied to both mankind and animals.)

Rev. 16:3: “It became blood as of a dead man, and every living soul* died, yes, the things in the sea.” (Thus the Christian Greek Scriptures also show animals to be souls.) (*In Greek the word here is psy·khe´. KJ, AS, and Dy render it “soul.” Some translators use the term “creature” or “thing.”)

“There is no dichotomy [division] of body and soul in the O[ld] T[estament]. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not as composites. The term nepeš [ne´phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psy·khe´] is the N[ew] T[estament] word corresponding with nepeš. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 449, 450.

“The Hebrew term for ‘soul’ (nefesh, that which breathes) was used by Moses . . . , signifying an ‘animated being’ and applicable equally to nonhuman beings. . . . New Testament usage of psyche (‘soul’) was comparable to nefesh.”—The New Encyclopædia Britannica (1976), Macropædia, Vol. 15, p. 152.

“The belief that the soul continues its existence after the dissolution of the body is a matter of philosophical or theological speculation rather than of simple faith, and is accordingly nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture.”—The Jewish Encyclopedia (1910), Vol. VI, p. 564.

Can the human soul die?

Ezek. 18:4: “Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*Hebrew reads “the ne´phesh.” KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy render it “the soul.” Some translations say “the man” or “the person.”)

Matt. 10:28: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul [or, “life”]; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul* and body in Gehenna.” (*Greek has the accusative case of psy·khe´. KJ, AS, RS, NE, TEV, Dy, JB, and NAB all render it “soul.”)

Acts 3:23: “Indeed, any soul [Greek, psy·khe´] that does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.”

Is the soul the same as the spirit?

Eccl. 12:7: “Then the dust returns to the earth just as it happened to be and the spirit [or, life-force; Hebrew, ru´ach] itself returns to the true God who gave it.” (Notice that the Hebrew word for spirit is ru´ach; but the word translated soul is ne´phesh. The text does not mean that at death the spirit travels all the way to the personal presence of God; rather, any prospect for the person to live again rests with God. In similar usage, we may say that, if required payments are not made by the buyer of a piece of property, the property “returns” to its owner.) (KJ, AS, RS, NE, and Dy all here render ru´ach as “spirit.” NAB reads “life breath.”)

Eccl. 3:19: “There is an eventuality as respects the sons of mankind and an eventuality as respects the beast, and they have the same eventuality. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit [Hebrew, ru´ach].” (Thus both mankind and beasts are shown to have the same ru´ach, or spirit. For comments on verses 20, 21, see page 383.)

Heb. 4:12: “The word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul [Greek, psy·khes´; “life,” NE] and spirit [Greek, pneu´ma·tos], and of joints and their marrow, and is able to discern thoughts and intentions of the heart.” (Observe that the Greek word for “spirit” is not the same as the word for “soul.”)

Does conscious life continue for a person after the spirit leaves the body?

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit [Hebrew, from ru´ach] goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts do perish.” (NAB, Ro, Yg, and Dy [145:4] here render ru´ach as “spirit.” Some translations say “breath.”) (Also Psalm 104:29)

What is the origin of Christendom’s belief in an immaterial, immortal soul?

“The Christian concept of a spiritual soul created by God and infused into the body at conception to make man a living whole is the fruit of a long development in Christian philosophy. Only with Origen [died c. 254 C.E.] in the East and St. Augustine [died 430 C.E.] in the West was the soul established as a spiritual substance and a philosophical concept formed of its nature. . . . His [Augustine’s] doctrine . . . owed much (including some shortcomings) to Neoplatonism.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia (1967), Vol. XIII, pp. 452, 454.

“The concept of immortality is a product of Greek thinking, whereas the hope of a resurrection belongs to Jewish thought. . . . Following Alexander’s conquests Judaism gradually absorbed Greek concepts.”—Dictionnaire Encyclopédique de la Bible (Valence, France; 1935), edited by Alexandre Westphal, Vol. 2, p. 557.

“Immortality of the soul is a Greek notion formed in ancient mystery cults and elaborated by the philosopher Plato.”—Presbyterian Life, May 1, 1970, p. 35.

“Do we believe that there is such a thing as death? . . . Is it not the separation of soul and body? And to be dead is the completion of this; when the soul exists in herself, and is released from the body and the body is released from the soul, what is this but death? . . . And does the soul admit of death? No. Then the soul is immortal? Yes.”—Plato’s “Phaedo,” Secs. 64, 105, as published in Great Books of the Western World (1952), edited by R. M. Hutchins, Vol. 7, pp. 223, 245, 246.

“The problem of immortality, we have seen, engaged the serious attention of the Babylonian theologians. . . . Neither the people nor the leaders of religious thought ever faced the possibility of the total annihilation of what once was called into existence. Death was a passage to another kind of life.”—The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria (Boston, 1898), M. Jastrow, Jr., p. 556.

Sorry for the long post.

P1234567890 · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 2:52 pm Post subject:

And incidentally, at which point during conception does the soul enter the body? It's not like conception happens instantly; it has many steps. The sperm swims up to the egg, touches it, and then fuses with the egg's cell wall. At this point, each of the sperm's 23 chromosomes enter the egg's outer membrane, and move through the egg into its nucleus to join the egg's 23 chromosomes.

During exactly which one of thse steps does ensoulment happen?

got_truth? · Ferret Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 107

The critical question is, When does life start? Dr. Nathanson commented: “We know there is human life in there from the very onset of pregnancy.” Another physician, Frank P. Bolles, M.D., in a letter to the Denver Post, said: “It is far easier to send a man to the welfare office than to share from our own table; or to offer an abortion for the problem pregnancy rather than to care for the woman through her time of need . . . Abortion is not a legal, biologic or economic issue. It is not the State vs. the individual, but rather the individual(s) vs. God. I would urge you to consider Him and His thoughts as you decide the value of the life of your neighbor, (both born and unborn, wanted and unwanted, intact or deformed) and your own life.”

Well, then, what does God’s Word, the Bible, indicate? It shows that Jehovah God has high regard for human life right from its very start. His law to ancient Israel stated: “In case men should struggle with each other and they really hurt a pregnant woman and her children do come out but no fatal accident occurs, he is to have damages imposed upon him without fail according to what the owner of the woman may lay upon him; and he must give it through the justices. But if a fatal accident should occur, then you must give soul for soul.”—Ex. 21:22-25.

Significantly, nothing said here or elsewhere in Scripture indicates that the age of the embryo or fetus should be a factor in determining whether to have an abortion. Since Jehovah God sets forth no such qualifications, it would be inappropriate for anyone else to try doing so.

It is important to realize that life is passed on, not at birth, but, rather, when conception occurs. It is then, says the Encyclopædia Britannica, that “the life-history of the individual, as a distinct and biological entity, begins.” Jehovah certainly has regard for human life prior to birth, for the divinely inspired psalmist David said of him: “Your eyes saw even the embryo of me, and in your book all its parts were down in writing, as regards the days when they were formed and there was not yet one among them.”—Ps. 139:16.

got_truth? · Ferret Joined: 22 May 2006 Posts: 107

SEPTEMBER 21, 1989, was an unusual day for the Fifth Judicial District of the State of Tennessee, U.S.A. On that day the circuit court handed down an opinion on a custody dispute over seven frozen human embryos. The court had to decide which of the divorcing parents was entitled to custody. However, first another issue cried out for settlement: Are the embryos to be considered property or human beings?

Professor Jerome Lejeune of Paris, world-famous geneticist, testified before the court that each human has a unique beginning, which occurs at the moment of conception and that “as soon as he has been conceived, a man is a man.” In other words, beginning at the three-cell stage (zygote), the embryos are, as he told the court, “tiny human beings”!

When asked if he was testifying that the zygote should be treated with the same rights as an adult, Dr. Lejeune answered: “I’m not telling you that because I’m not in a position of knowing that. I’m telling you, he is a human being, and then it is a Justice who will tell whether this human being has the same rights as the others. . . . But as a geneticist you ask me whether this human being is a human, and I would tell you that because he is a being and being human, he is a human being.”

Based primarily on Dr. Lejeune’s unrebutted testimony, three of the courts salient conclusions are:

· “From fertilization, the cells of a human embryo are differentiated, unique and specialized to the highest degree of distinction.”

FFT · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 3:24 pm Post subject:

Flashman · Pit Bull Joined: 28 Apr 2006 Posts: 371 Location: MO

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Flashman · Pit Bull Joined: 28 Apr 2006 Posts: 371 Location: MO

FFT · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:25 pm Post subject:

P1234567890 · Posted: Wed May 24, 2006 5:47 pm Post subject:

Flashman · Pit Bull Joined: 28 Apr 2006 Posts: 371 Location: MO