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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:21 pm Post subject: |
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here's a parable...
As my mind thinks on deep thoughts during the day and night, a slow soreness moves across my chest from right to left and boils to a full flare pain right in the center of my upper stomach.
distress and heartburn make it uncomfortable to be still, so I rock from side to side and backwards and forwards to ease the pain.
This only occurs after I have eaten and have become full. nothing eases it accept trying to lie still and time.
what am I ?
mindon you know don't you?
hey Joseph can you interpret my distress?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6064
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject: |
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Is faith required for a "work" to be "good?"
If I'm an atheist, is volunteering for the Big Brother/Big Sister program not a good deed? |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:43 am Post subject: |
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| Love of your neighbor is considered the second great commandment. Loving actions are counted on the plus side with or without faith. I'm going to get clobbered for this answer. For defense I'm thinking of the parable of the good Samaritan who helped the man when the priests had passed him by. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:25 am Post subject: |
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Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
when you do something out of the goodness of your heart for another, you are following the law and the good that you do comes from God who when he made man put good in him.
God is good. All good things come from God.
Man forgot where good came from, God wrote it down so they would understand that the good that is in their hearts is the same good that he wrote down for us. The law is good, because it is of God.
So if you say I don't believe in God and yet do the things that God says is good, then it is still God working through you whether you choose to believe or not.
Truth is Truth no matter how you try to hide it, or bury it, or eliminate it.
You can't because truth is eternal.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Is faith required for a "work" to be "good?"
If I'm an atheist, is volunteering for the Big Brother/Big Sister program not a good deed? |
Good Day
The question now is why are you volunteering for the Big Brother/Big Sister program? Is it not by belief that you are volunteering? Does the atheist not believe that by volunteering their time, they are doing something beneficial?
Whether they realise it or not even the atheist is religious. Read the text in Parables and you will see.
Good Day |
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | Love of your neighbor is considered the second great commandment. Loving actions are counted on the plus side with or without faith. I'm going to get clobbered for this answer. For defense I'm thinking of the parable of the good Samaritan who helped the man when the priests had passed him by. |
Good Day
You are mistaken on one point. But this point brings us to another necessary detail. Loving actions are not counted if it is without faith. It does not count as faith if you are doing something just for the heck of it. This means that you are doing something without any faith. This is possible. You will have people who will initiate an action just to receive accolades or recognition. For example, The individual who runs into a burning building to save a person for the sole purpose of receiving recognition on the evening news, does not receive any recognition from God. He has already received his reward. He may have done a good action, but it was not out of faith or conviction. This is one of the reason why Christ states in Matt 7:21-23
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity
Christ tells these people to depart from him because their actions were for the wrong reason. They were not based from conviction. Many people are doing good deeds just to get recognition, money, or for a political purpose. These actions do not fool God and they count for nothing. Your actions will not benefit you if they are not done out of faith.
Now the mistake that most Christians make is that they believe that just because an individual does not believe in Christ, it also means that they have no conviction or faith. This is wrong. Look at what Lone-traveler wrote to understand this point. The Good Samaritan’s deeds were done out of conviction. He wasn’t a holy roller, as the previous passer bys but he was a man of conviction. The others just talked the talk but when it came down to it their actions exposed them for who they really were, hypocrites. This is why you have to look beyond speech and also examine consistent action. Speech or talk carries very little weight. What you consistently do makes all the difference in the world. And you cannot consistently help your fellow man without the love of God dwelling in you.
Good Day
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Another place in my mind that backs up the value of showing love even if you didn't have faith is when Jesus talks about not everyone who says Lord, Lord will be saved. "Lord, when did we see you hungry and clothe you, hungry and feed you" and He says "as long as you did it for the least of my brethern you did it for me." |
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 9:00 pm Post subject: |
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| cballard wrote: | | Another place in my mind that backs up the value of showing love even if you didn't have faith is when Jesus talks about not everyone who says Lord, Lord will be saved. "Lord, when did we see you hungry and clothe you, hungry and feed you" and He says "as long as you did it for the least of my brethern you did it for me." |
Good Day
Tell us how do you show love without having faith? Give us an example. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6064
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 11:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Mindonfire wrote: | The question now is why are you volunteering for the Big Brother/Big Sister program? Is it not by belief that you are volunteering? Does the atheist not believe that by volunteering their time, they are doing something beneficial?
Whether they realise it or not even the atheist is religious. Read the text in Parables and you will see. |
Uh. I volunteer (though not for the Big Brother program, yet), how is this a religious activity?
How is performing acts for the betterment of mankind religious? How is believing that I should better my fellow man religious? |
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 5:09 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Mindonfire wrote: | The question now is why are you volunteering for the Big Brother/Big Sister program? Is it not by belief that you are volunteering? Does the atheist not believe that by volunteering their time, they are doing something beneficial?
Whether they realise it or not even the atheist is religious. Read the text in Parables and you will see. |
Uh. I volunteer (though not for the Big Brother program, yet), how is this a religious activity?
How is performing acts for the betterment of mankind religious? How is believing that I should better my fellow man religious? |
Good Day
Here are the definitions for religious and religion and below is an excerpt from Parables.
Definition (Merriam Webster)
Religious: (adj) 1 : relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity *religious attitudes* 2: of, relating to, or devoted to religious beliefs or observances *joined a religious order* 3 a : scrupulously and conscientiously faithful b : FERVENT, ZEALOUS
Religion: (n) 1 a : the state of a religious *a nun in her 20th year of religion* b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
From Parables
“Before we continue, there is a general misconception which needs to be addressed. In order to completely understand the term (religious principle), it is important for us to understand that religion or being religious does not always involve the worship of a deity. If you will look at the definition you will see that religious also relates to, manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality. This means that whatever one has acknowledged and faithfully devoted themselves to in this world as their ultimate reality, becomes their religion. Since this is the case, those who adhere to Communism, Socialism, Fascism, Democracy, or any other form of government or system are practicing a religion. So whether they realise it or not, everyone is religious and everyone has a religion.”
Good Day |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 6:40 am Post subject: |
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In other words...
you are what you eat. whatever you take into your body mind or soul is what you will become.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6064
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 11:53 am Post subject: |
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So, in other words, you've got nothing but an equivocation? This is nothing new.
You're equivocating the fourth definition (which really doesn't fit how I feel about volunteering) with the first and second. |
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | So, in other words, you've got nothing but an equivocation? This is nothing new.
You're equivocating the fourth definition (which really doesn't fit how I feel about volunteering) with the first and second. |
Good Day
So why then does one volunteer, unless it is for ulterior motives. Most people volunteer because they believe in giving back to their communities. Then of course you have predators who volunteer for other reasons.
Good Day |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6064
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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I volunteer because I feel better helping people directly rather than just hoping everybody's doing okay. I'm going to be joining the Big Brother program soon, as it allows me to directly change someone's life for the better.
I don't do it because it'll help me get ahead in life, or because I expect to be rewarded. |
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 188
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| Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | I volunteer because I feel better helping people directly rather than just hoping everybody's doing okay. I'm going to be joining the Big Brother program soon, as it allows me to directly change someone's life for the better.
I don't do it because it'll help me get ahead in life, or because I expect to be rewarded. |
Good Day
Right there you have your cause, principle, or system of beliefs.
No one should be doing anything just to get a reward. The reward that comes just happens to be extra. One should do things out of belief and love. Thats the message. When you love what you do, you will do it whether you receive a reward or not. You will do it for free. When you love your fellow man, you will help them for free. You will want to see them better themselves. You don't find too many people like that in this generation Christian or otherwise. Everthing nowadays is done for some sort of political or monetary gain.
Good Day |
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