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cballard
Bear



Joined: 16 Jun 2005

Posts: 690

Location: WV

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the sin of the Jews was to believe too much in their works. Works without faith are useless and faith without works is useless.
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golfjack
Lion King



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 1112

Location: arizona

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:47 pm    Post subject: reply Reply with quote

If a Jew can't be saved by works, how can a believer be saved by works? I think the verse in James that says faith without works is dead has been mis-interpreted by some. You see, faith is an action word. We accept Christ by faith, and iif we don't operate our faith by confessing Him as our Lord and Savior, of course faith is dead. I believe the Bible commands us to use our faith to get thinks from God, like healing. After a person is saved, the Bible says He has the measure of faith. We cannot be saved without grace and faith.



May God bless, golfjack
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 188


PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

golfjack wrote:
In Romans 11:20-22, Paul is admonishing the arrogant Gentles to not thiink high thoughts. He says be afraid. Why be afraid? If God did not spare the natural branches (Jewish people), He may not spare you either. Paul is using the connection between the Jews and Gentles, and in effect, telling them not to boast against the Jews. These verses have litttle to do with eternal security. As far as I am concerned, you have not made your case against eternal security. My friend, we are saved by grace through faith. If you want to find out about God's plan of salvation, read Ephesians chapter 1, 2, and 3.



May God bless, golfjack


Good day

What is Paul admonishing the arrogant Gentiles about? Well evidently it has something to do about salvation because he mentions sparing or saving. The Gentiles thought that their salvation was guaranteed and the natural branch’s salvation was not. They thought that they were better So Paul reminded them that God is not a respect of person. If he can destroy those who are the original Believers who the word of God was given to, then what makes you who are adopted think that you are better than they. What makes you think that your salvation is guaranteed when theirs was not.

Let us present you with an example. If you have two children, one is your child by birth, and the other is your child by adoption.. It would make no sense that the adopted child would expect you to punish your natural child and then allow him to do as he pleases without any punishment. If you will punish your natural child when he does wrong, why would you not punish your adopted child if he does wrong.

The doctrine of eternal security is nothing new. It has been around for ages.

Good Day
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 188


PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cballard wrote:
I think the sin of the Jews was to believe too much in their works. Works without faith are useless and faith without works is useless.


Good Day

There can be no consistant works without faith

Good Day
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golfjack
Lion King



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 1112

Location: arizona

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:35 pm    Post subject: reply Reply with quote

Mindonfire, It's all about faith in a God who came to earth to save you.



May God bless, golfjack
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy



Joined: 26 Mar 2005

Posts: 5845

Location: Memphis

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Revelation
20:11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened – the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.

Why doesn't it mention faith? Confused or disgusted
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 02 Jul 2005

Posts: 6342

Location: USA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why doesn't it mention faith in the day of judgment?

look..

Psalms - Chapter 1

Psa 1:1 Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
Psa 1:2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Psa 1:3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
Psa 1:4 The ungodly [are] not so: but [are] like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
Psa 1:6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

you know at he end it says who is on the outside of the kingdom?

Rev 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Go backwards FFT..back to Genesis..and Cain knew his wife...

how? from where? They are not in the Garden of Eden, they are not in paradise, they are not in the kingdom of God.

They are those that have no faith, and they do not believe that there is even a God to come into judgment with.
Who are those who fear judgment, but those who believe that it truly exists.

And the Sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair to look upon. And they took them for their wives.

There is in the law about taking wives from countries round about, and not mixing with them.

But those who Abide with God and do not leave their first estate in the new earth and heaven, will neither marry nor be given in marriage but will be as the Angels in heaven.

So no faith, no judgment. Just death as beasts.

\
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 188


PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FFT wrote:
Revelation
20:11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.
20:12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened – the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds.
20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death – the lake of fire.
20:15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.

Why doesn't it mention faith? Confused or disgusted


Good Day
It doesn’t mention faith because faith and deeds are the same thing. You can’t have faith without works or deeds. It is impossible. It would be like having water without the wet. Faith and works are inseparable. People have been duped into believing that confession is all that is needed to qualify one as a Believer, but that is not the message the Bible intended to convey. If you truly believe, then some action or inaction should arise from that belief. Belief is the foundation of all your consistent actions and inactions. You do not do anything without first believing. This means that your conistent actions or inactions become your confession of faith.

This is why Jesus told people to look at the fruit. Your fruits are your works. They manifest what you believe. If you have two people standing together motionless how do you know who is a Believer and who is not. You don't. The only way that you can tell is after you start to examine their consistent actions and their lifestyle. Words mean nothing if they are not followed by action. Anyone is capable of telling you what you want to hear for the purpose of deception. This is why you listen first, then you examine their actions or inactions. Because if they say that they are a Believer their actions will soon reveal it.

You see most people do not even understand how powerful faith is. Everything that man does in his life is born from his faith. Even the act of brushing One's teeth is based on faith. You believe that by brushing your teeth, you are killing the germs in your mouth which could lead to bad breath, cavities, and overall bad hygiene. If you didn't believe that brushing your teeth was beneficial then you wouldn’t brush them. So by brushing your teeth you save them from decay. So in essence your teeth are preserved or saved by your faith.
So even the smallest thing that man does or does not do is born from their faith.

Therefore your actions confess your beliefs. You know the old saying; “Actions speak louder than words.” This means that it is not all about running around screaming Jesus Christ. It’s about living the Godly life. Non- Believers in effect become Believers if they uphold and do what God has commanded in the scriptures. Their actions become their confession of faith. And Believers become Non- Believers by confessing with their mouths but not showing it in their actions.

Christians have fallen for the oldest trick in the book; Watch what I say, but not what I do.


James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 188


PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:10 pm    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

golfjack wrote:
Mindonfire, It's all about faith in a God who came to earth to save you.

May God bless, golfjack


Good Day

God doesn't have to come where he is already at.

Good Day
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golfjack
Lion King



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 1112

Location: arizona

PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:00 pm    Post subject: reply Reply with quote

Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father. Jesus sent us the comforter, the Holy Spirit. We serve the resurrected Christ.



May God bless, golfjack
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 188


PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: reply Reply with quote

golfjack wrote:
Jesus Christ sits at the right hand of the Father. Jesus sent us the comforter, the Holy Spirit. We serve the resurrected Christ.



May God bless, golfjack


Good Day

Where is the right hand of the Father? Where does God sit?

Good Day
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golfjack
Lion King



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 1112

Location: arizona

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:50 am    Post subject: reply Reply with quote

I have no idea what you are trying to say. Why don't explain your thelogy. Of course, God the Father and Son are in the third heaven. Yes, the Kingdom of God is in the Believer, but not in the natural way.






May God bless, golfjack
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe



Joined: 02 Jul 2005

Posts: 6342

Location: USA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exd 15:6 Thy right hand, O LORD, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O LORD, hath dashed in pieces the enemy.

Exd 15:12 Thou stretchedst out thy right hand, the earth swallowed them.

Deu 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.

Deu 2:27 Let me pass through thy land: I will go along by the high way, I will neither turn unto the right hand nor to the left.

2Ch 18:18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and [on] his left.

Psa 48:10 According to thy name, O God, so [is] thy praise unto the ends of the earth: thy right hand is full of righteousness.

Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Luk 6:6 And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.

Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand [to be] a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],

Hbr 11:16 But now they desire a better [country], that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hbr 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

heavenly Jerusalem....see Eden.

Heaven is his throne and earth his footstool.

2Sa 22:10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down; and darkness [was] under his feet.
2Sa 22:39 And I have consumed them, and wounded them, that they could not arise: yea, they are fallen under my feet.

1Ki 5:3 Thou knowest how that David my father could not build an house unto the name of the LORD his God for the wars which were about him on every side, until the LORD put them under the soles of his feet.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy



Joined: 26 Mar 2005

Posts: 5845

Location: Memphis

PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mindonfire wrote:
It doesn’t mention faith because faith and deeds are the same thing. You can’t have faith without works or deeds. It is impossible. It would be like having water without the wet. Faith and works are inseparable. People have been duped into believing that confession is all that is needed to qualify one as a Believer, but that is not the message the Bible intended to convey. If you truly believe, then some action or inaction should arise from that belief. Belief is the foundation of all your consistent actions and inactions. You do not do anything without first believing. This means that your conistent actions or inactions become your confession of faith.
I'm aware of this. I understand the connection between faith and works. I understand that if one truly has faith, their works reflect this. However, it is possible to have good works without faith, and this section of Revelation appears to promote good actions primarily, rather than primarily faith with good actions.
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Mindonfire
Alley Cat



Joined: 24 Aug 2005

Posts: 188


PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

FFT wrote:
I'm aware of this. I understand the connection between faith and works. I understand that if one truly has faith, their works reflect this. However, it is possible to have good works without faith, and this section of Revelation appears to promote good actions primarily, rather than primarily faith with good actions.


Good Day

How do you have good works without faith? Who does anything without first believing in what they are doing?

Good Day
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