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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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 Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| Read Sanger's own words in her books. THEN make up your mind. Sanger wanted blacks, the sick, the infirm, the mentally retarded, the Irish immigrants and many more classes exterminated; exterminated slowly and over time through 'planned parenthood'. And THAT is exactly what has been happening from her day to the present through the actions of "Planned" Parenthood. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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Although this is a only a "bit" disjointed from the thread and the topic, it is germane to the thinking process. A study into abortion being linked to the reduction of crime and a rebuttal.
The Study: http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=174508
The Abstract:
We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions. Crime began to fall roughly 18 years after abortion legalization. The 5 states that allowed abortion in 1970 experienced declines earlier than the rest of the nation, which legalized in 1973 with Roe v. Wade. States with high abortion rates in the 1970s and 1980s experienced greater crime reductions in the 1990s. In high abortion states, only arrests of those born after abortion legalization fall relative to low abortion states. Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime.
The Rebuttal: http://www.slate.com/id/33569/entry/33726/
The widespread assumption that your theory must be correct reveals just how many people deep down believe, whether they admit it publicly or not, that "certain people" are just permanently more incorrigible than others. As a contender for the World's Least Politically Correct Human, I'm sympathetic. It's ironic, but because I've been arguing for years that genetic diversity affects society, I was one of the few to notice in this particular case that crime has risen and fallen not because we are aborting the poor and black and unwanted, but because of that staple of genteel liberal commentary, Cultural Forces (e.g., crack). |
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | A study into abortion being linked to the reduction of crime and a rebuttal. |
Well, that certainly is a start; now, then,
1) taking the 1970's period in 'your' paper, what of the reduction of various races as a result of abortoin and contraception?
2) For example, at the time of abortion being ruled legal, what was the populatoin of blacks?
3) And of their population in the successive years from then until now?
4) Going back to the early 70's, what then was the white population?
5) And what was their population in the successive years population leading up to now?
6) Now, compare those two sets of figures and what conclusions can be drawn from them?
7) So, if crime has gone down in the last 35-40 years, in which race can this decrease most likely be attributed to and why? |
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Sky
Booted
Joined: 08 May 2006
Posts: 354
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | | because of that staple of genteel liberal commentary, Cultural Forces (e.g., crack). |
uh huh, and from which race(s) does most of the illegal drugs come from that winds up in the black neighborhoods? And why is this? |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Hey kids, that's not my study, nor my paper. I'm just tossing it out there for fish food. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 5:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Sky wrote: | | Read Sanger's own words in her books. THEN make up your mind. Sanger wanted blacks, the sick, the infirm, the mentally retarded, the Irish immigrants and many more classes exterminated; exterminated slowly and over time through 'planned parenthood'. And THAT is exactly what has been happening from her day to the present through the actions of "Planned" Parenthood. |
If you're trying to say that Planned Parenthood is some kind of eugenics and ethnic cleansing project, then you're just plain silly.
Margaret Sanger, for all of her faults, did have at least one good idea: that contraception should be widely available. Planned Parenthood does a whole lot more good than it does evil.
Even evil people can have good ideas. The Autobahn and the Volkswagen were Hitler's ideas, and they were GOOD ideas. An idea's validity is completely independent of whose mouth it's coming from...
On a separate note, there is no scriptural basis for the pro-life movement. There is no good Biblical argument against abortion. If you disagree, go ahead and quote one. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="P1234567890"
On a separate note, there is no scriptural basis for the pro-life movement. There is no good Biblical argument against abortion. If you disagree, go ahead and quote one.[/quote]
From: http://www.reformed.org/social/abortion.html
the Bible does indeed establish that an unborn child is just as much a human in God's eyes as we ourselves are. This indicates that the command "Thou Shall not Murder" (Exodus 20:13) certainly applies to the unborn as well as the already born. Thus, when we read Genesis 9:6, the full realization of what it means to murder comes in to focus, "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man." Murder is an abomination in the sight of God because it is the unauthorized killing of a being made in His own image, and a blurring of the creator/creature distinction (cf. Romans 1).
The Christian can be nothing other than pro Life. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: |
the Bible does indeed establish that an unborn child is just as much a human in God's eyes as we ourselves are.
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No, it really doesn't. Give the chapter and verse of where it says that a fetus has a soul. In fact, there is a very good argument to be made that ensoulment happens with the first breath taken, since the Bible explicitly says that Adam received his Soul with his first breath. From Genesis:
| Quote: | | 002:007 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. |
| Flashman wrote: |
The Christian can be nothing other than pro Life. |
No. At best, the Bible is silent on the topic of abortion. There is no scriptural basis whatsoever for the pro-life movement. At worst, the pro-life movement is totally UN-Christian, since it is claiming that fetuses have souls, when there is a reasonable argument to be made that ensoulment happens with the first breath.
Find a quote from the Bible that says that ensoulment happens at conception. Otherwise you have no scriptural basis for your pro-life views. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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P, what I wrote is only a chunk of the link. Go and read the link and if you read it without looking for the words "abortion is bad", you'll see that killing the little thing in a womb (a baby to mothers who want them) was created in God's image.
And I'm not saying I'm in agreement with "pro-life" prima facie. I'm actually pro-life and pro-choice. I believe that a woman has the absolute right to do with her body as she wishes. But, I also say there are dire consequences for the choice made by her and her doctor. (makes me very glad I'm not a woman having to make tough decisions) |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 6:56 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
No. At best, the Bible is silent on the topic of abortion. There is no scriptural basis whatsoever for the pro-life movement. At worst, the pro-life movement is totally UN-Christian, since it is claiming that fetuses have souls, when there is a reasonable argument to be made that ensoulment happens with the first breath.
Find a quote from the Bible that says that ensoulment happens at conception. Otherwise you have no scriptural basis for your pro-life views. |
The primary point of conflict in the entire abortion debate is the question of when life begins. If indeed life begins in the womb, then no one could disagree that the fetus (latin for `little one') is a human being, and is subject to the rights (God's laws concerning humanity) which befit a human being. First, the Bible establishes that God recognizes a person even before he or she is born. "Before I was born the Lord called me" (Isaiah 49:1). Exodus 21:22-23 describes a situation in which a man hits a pregnant woman and causes her to give birth prematurely. If there is "no serious injury," the man is required to pay a fine, but if there is "serious injury," either to the mother or the child, then the man is guilty of murder and subject to the penalty of death. This command, in itself, legitimizes the humanity of the unborn child, and places the child on a level equal that of the adult male who caused the miscarriage. Scriptural support abounds for the humanity of the unborn child. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made . . . your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Ps 139: 13-16). The Bible, in fact, uses the same Greek word to describe the unborn John the Baptist (Luke 1:41,44), the newborn baby Jesus (Luke 2:12,16), and the young children who were brought to Jesus for his blessing (Luke 18:15). |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | P, what I wrote is only a chunk of the link. Go and read the link and if you read it without looking for the words "abortion is bad", you'll see that killing the little thing in a womb (a baby to mothers who want them) was created in God's image.
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Yes, but nowhere does it address when ensoulment happens, and that is the one and only issue that matters. The body is just a vessel, and really doesn't matter. It is ok to kill things that don't have souls; we do it all the time for food. It is not ok to kill anyone that does have a soul; that is murder. Ensoulment is the key issue, and the Bible is fairly silent on it. All it really gives is the one example of Adam getting his soul when he takes his first breath.
| Flashman wrote: |
And I'm not saying I'm in agreement with "pro-life" prima facie. I'm actually pro-life and pro-choice. I believe that a woman has the absolute right to do with her body as she wishes.
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It sounds like we agree, then!
| Flashman wrote: |
But, I also say there are dire consequences for the choice made by her and her doctor. (makes me very glad I'm not a woman having to make tough decisions) |
Consequences in terms of going to hell? You still haven't convinced me that abortion is murder. I need a solid scriptural statement proving that abortion is murder, or else I have to keep insisting that there is no scriptural basis for the pro-life movement.
Maybe abortion is murder. Maybe it's not. My point is that there is absolutely no way that you or I or anyone can know what the answer is in this lifetime, because the Bible doesn't give a clear answer. Anyone who is decidedly pro-life is taking a stance that is MUCH stronger than is warranted by the Bible. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, we do agree on the Pro-xxx issues.
But, in my prior post, which I was typing whilst you were, but I beat ya to the enter key; clearly shows that the "person" or soul was created even prior to the child's conception. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | Yes, we do agree on the Pro-xxx issues.
But, in my prior post, which I was typing whilst you were, but I beat ya to the enter key; clearly shows that the "person" or soul was created even prior to the child's conception. |
The best point you were making was the passage from Exodus, but you've misquoted it. It says,
| Quote: | 21:22. If men quarrel, and one strike a woman with child and she miscarry indeed, but live herself: he shall be answerable for so much damage as the woman’s husband shall require, and as arbiters shall award.
21:23. But if her death ensue thereupon, he shall render life for life,
21:24. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
21:25. Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. |
It clearly says that if she miscarries, then the evil guy shall be put to death ONLY if she dies as well. If anything, this passage shows that the baby's life is insignificant compared with the life of the mother. The baby's life is only worth money, but taking the mother's life is murder. This passage shows that the Bible DOES NOT consider abortion to be murder. |
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Flashman
Pit Bull
Joined: 28 Apr 2006
Posts: 371
Location: MO
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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You know, I took that quote from the linked source. Then I looked it up and found this:
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
So, she gives birth prematurely (the child could live and no serious injury would be there) then he is fined whatever the husband or court decides.
But if there is serious injury (either to the wife or the child it is easy to extrapolate), then it's life for life, etc...
So, it doesn't close the door to the idea of a death penalty for infanticide. However, I will say it is not 100% clear on its face. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 6772
Location: Toronto, Canada
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| Posted: Thu May 18, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Flashman wrote: | You know, I took that quote from the linked source. Then I looked it up and found this:
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
So, she gives birth prematurely (the child could live and no serious injury would be there) then he is fined whatever the husband or court decides.
But if there is serious injury (either to the wife or the child it is easy to extrapolate), then it's life for life, etc...
So, it doesn't close the door to the idea of a death penalty for infanticide. However, I will say it is not 100% clear on its face. |
Really, what this comes down to is which version of the Bible is being used. I desperately want to know what the oldest, most legitimate version of the Bible says. Forget all of the translated and re-translated versions that we're all using. The translation that I used seems to clearly show that abortion is definitely not murder. This translation could be a perversion. The translation that you use, as you say, is not clear. Again, it could be a perverted translation. I want to know what the originals say.
In any case, I think that my point stands... In the best-case scenario for the pro-life movement, the Bible is unclear / silent on the issue, which means that there is no scriptural basis for equating abortion with murder.
Some expert in ancient Greek really needs to go and read the oldest version of Exodus around. If it says that killing the fetus gets a fine, but killing the mother warrants a death penalty, then all of the pro-lifers everywhere who call themselves Christians immediately need to sit down and do some hard thinking.
Last edited by P1234567890 on Thu May 18, 2006 7:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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