 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
|
 Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 11:51 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
But what i can say for Islam is this, it has a political framework and its form of governance. Although this governance hasn't been implemented in many so-called 'Muslim' countries. Many of these leaders are corrupt and have no interest in the people. They neither represent Islam nor does Islam endourse their type of rule. The sooner they are replaced with more suitable folk, the better. |
It doesn't matter how good the leaders are; if state and church are not separated, there will be MAJOR problems. A separation between church and state is absolutely necessary. It's one of the best ideas mankind has ever come up with. |
What are you basing that upon? Upon Christianity's role in state?
Islam provides its followers with a law, the law of God. And yes, that does take into account state affairs.
Secularism or the separation of Church from State is not an option for Muslims. It disregards the law of God for another set of laws that are man-made. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tiptronic wrote: |
| P1234567890 wrote: | | It doesn't matter how good the leaders are; if state and church are not separated, there will be MAJOR problems. A separation between church and state is absolutely necessary. It's one of the best ideas mankind has ever come up with. |
What are you basing that upon? Upon Christianity's role in state?
|
No, I don't think that Christianity should have any role in state. I think that church and state should be totally separated. I am basing my statement that separation between church and state is a great idea on the fact that throughout history, and certainly today, countries that have a separation between church and state have MUCH better governments than countries which don't.
For example, compare Sweden, Canada, and France with Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the Taliban Afghanistan.
There's really no contest...
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Islam provides its followers with a law, the law of God. And yes, that does take into account state affairs.
|
That's really too bad, because it will make it much harder to achieve a separation between church and state.
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Secularism or the separation of Church from State is not an option for Muslims. It disregards the law of God for another set of laws that are man-made. |
Yes, I am beginning to understand this; Muslims seem to have no concept of separating church and state, nor do they want to even explore the option.
This is tragic. It means that Muslim countries will always be third world countries, that they will always have corrupt governments, and that they will always be dominated and exploited by the West.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1369
|
| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 7:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Im not too sure about Christianity and what kind of political framework it lays down, what kind of laws it has, etc. if any. Anyone?
|
Tiptronic, FWIW I'm in the secular camp here on these boards, but I find the study of religion very interesting...I try to learn as much as I can about many of them....religion has such a powerful force in any culture that I think it's impossible to understand anyone without understanding their cultural underpinnings...
First, and not in direct response to the quote, I think there are some examples of Muslim countries that do better at separating church and state...Turkey, Indonesia, Jordan for example...perfect? No, but on a path that seems "positive" as they adapt modern life with classical beliefs...
In response to the quote, in the Judeo-Christian world, many religious principles are evident in our political/legal framework...
I think the idea of separation of church and state follows from Jesus' teaching to "Render unto Caeser what is Caeser's and render unto God what is God's"...
Not only that, but the 10 commandment's are visible in most legal systems too...don't murder, don't steal, don't lie...
However, there isn't nearly the kind of direct "law" in the Christian Bible as there is the Q'uran, nor are the religious leaders embued with the kind of authority that Islam grants them...
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6064
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pondering wrote: | In response to the quote, in the Judeo-Christian world, many religious principles are evident in our political/legal framework...
...
Not only that, but the 10 commandment's are visible in most legal systems too...don't murder, don't steal, don't lie... |
Well there's no actual prohibition against lying in our legal system, except when under oath.
That said, pretty much every society ever has had these laws. Even the ones which predate the Hebrews. It's not surprising that they are in our legal framework, if they weren't no one would want to live here. Society doesn't work very well without prohibitions against murder and theft. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5141
Location: Missouri
|
| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 5:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
FFT, who do we swear our oath to! 
FTT, do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, & nothing but the truth,
so help me ***!..............hummmmmmm! 
_________________
Much Love Nobby
CVP Smilies
dictionary Bible |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6064
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 10:37 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nobby wrote: | | FFT, who do we swear our oath to! |
Not God, necessarily, any more. These days, people have the option to affirm that they are telling the truth, without including the "so help me God" business.
Regardless, that's not the point. There is no legal prohibition against lying except within courts. Otherwise, we'd have no actors. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
arielmessenger
Sea Monkey
Joined: 19 Dec 2006
Posts: 12
Location: New World
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: Can't argue about Saudis needing blonde babes |
|
|
Muslims are in for increasing ridicule in Western countries where they think they can introduce Muhammad's 7th Century Arabic ideas of God and the world as if this could work to explain the power of Islam.
The power of Islam is seen in its attraction by those looking for authority figures to tell them what to think and do. As Enlightenment knowledge spreads from the West across the world Muslims will confront Western scholarship more and more which has already debunked and dethroned Christian myths and is currently doing the same for Jewish myths of origin.
Once Muslims discover that there was no Adam, no Noah, no Abraham, no Moses, no Exodus story, no David, no Solomon, and no miraculously born Jesus Christ of the Gospels, Muhammad's authority will come crashing down for Muslim intellectuals who in turn will then confront Muslim believers following the similar path that has happened with Christianity. True believers believe in the stories as inerrant truth. Believers in God but wary of men's territorial control agenda will take the stories metaphorically.
But most every intellectual Muslim or not will call for Separation of Church and State, never allowing ancient ignorance and prejudices to rule modern society. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, you've got an over-optimistic view of the future.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1369
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
Probably worth it's own thread, but I'll just tag it in here....
Tony Blair is pretty sharp guy in my opinion....and although long, he does a good job here explaining what "this war" is all about....
As an aside, he think he writes alot of his own speaches, unlike our Presidents...which is why his speaches and his interviews "gel" better, whereas ours seem to have more dissonance in the way the President (whichever-one-since-Kennedy) "talks" compared to how they "speach"
Anyway...
Linky
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 6:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pondering wrote: |
Tony Blair is pretty sharp guy in my opinion.... |
What makes you say this? He went against massive public opinion in the U.K. and attacked Iraq. This ended up being a mistake; ie. the 80% of people in his country who disagreed with him were right and he was wrong.
... And all he got out of it was that right-wing Americans consider the U.K. to be a 'true ally'.
That doesn't sound too bright to me...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1369
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7559
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Thu Dec 28, 2006 9:01 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Pondering wrote: |
did you read the link? |
Yeah, and it seems like Blair is a standard politician. His words sound GREAT, but his actions don't jive with his words AT ALL.
I agree that Islam presents a great danger to humanity and that virtually all Islamic countries on the planet have terrible human rights records.
But Blair's idea that attacking Iraq and Afghanistan is somehow helping the problem is just crazy. Saddam was a SECULAR dictator. He was about as un-Islamic as you're ever going to get in the Middle East. He was EXACTLY the kind of guy that America likes to play ball with, which is exactly the reason why they did play ball with him.
There are serious doubts about whether or not Iraq is going to end up being as secular as it used to be. Certainly right now there are a whole lot more fanatics running around there than there were under Saddam...
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
admin
Beloved Admin
Joined: 28 Sep 2000
Posts: 1749
Location: Macau, China
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
This posted on another website, in reference to when Islam may exceed Christianity in overall membership:
Depends on who you get your information from. Some sources say this will take place in the next 5 years, some say by 2025, others say never. It all depends who you are talking about.
One thing I do know, once Islam undergoes its Christian Reformation equivilant, it will lose adherants faster than you can say 'c-ya'.
*************
That last sentence interests me. Any thoughts?
_________________
Cybermonsters (Most Beloved Admin)
Favorite Octopus Video! - My Site - Studio
Have a question or need help with your account? E-mail: forum @ askland.net |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2530
Location: Salem Oregon
|
| Posted: Wed Jan 31, 2007 6:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
I hardly think so Christianity did its reformation thing because of demand by the people and their frustration over the silly things that were done in God's name and Islam should respond the same way.
When they get over the "exploding myth" of attaining heaven by killing people. No other religion that I'm aware of has this idea that killing others somehow qualifies them for heaven.
Martyrdom is when others kill you over some principle not when you kill yourself over some principle.
Kind of like indulgences with RCC, they guaranteed ahead of time some result. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| admin wrote: | This posted on another website, in reference to when Islam may exceed Christianity in overall membership:
Depends on who you get your information from. Some sources say this will take place in the next 5 years, some say by 2025, others say never. It all depends who you are talking about.
One thing I do know, once Islam undergoes its Christian Reformation equivalent, it will lose adherents faster than you can say 'c-ya'.
*************
That last sentence interests me. Any thoughts? |
Hey... that sounds familiar... 
Christianity, the Bible, and its doctrine has gone through more criticism, higher criticism, and virtually every form of persecution conceived.
The initial persecution of believers led others to see the strength of the faith. The internal differences and reformation in the 15th century led to a refreshing turn away from the medieval dogma of the Catholic Church. The higher criticism of the Enlightenment also served to strengthen the arguments of Christian apologists as never before. This is why the faith itself is firmly established from most disciplines of inquiry.
Islam, on the other hand, only suffered a brief period of persecution... and that was mainly from the heretics at Mecca... it has never seriously been challenged outside of the near and middle east’s. It does not accept any descent, criticism, or entertain perspectives contrary to its dogma.
Case in point - The Death of Christ - Of all the characters from antiquity there is no other personage who life and death is supported with more original sources of material. The problem for Muslims is that the Koran (whose canonization is an entirely different thread) states that Christ never died. Yet, every single book in the NT makes mention of this fact. It also uses a passage out of the NT to prophesize of the coming of Mohamed. If it going to, on one hand, deny the theme of the entire NT... and then use the NT as a source of prophesy... it has some serious questions to answer.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
