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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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 Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Islam is where Christianity was about 1430, go back and see where you end up in history, and how pleasant Christianity was back then.
In 2000, most terrorist attacks were deployed in Colombia. Who were responsible for most casualties I don't know, but a total of 405 people seem to have died from terrorist attacks.
In 2001 most terrorist attacks were again deployed in Colombia. There seem to have been slightly over 3 500 people killed in terrorist attacks in 2001
After 2001 I cannot find accurate stats right now of where most terrorist attacks were taking place. but about 725 people sem to have died in terrorist attacks in 2002, and about 675 in 2003
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: | Islam is where Christianity was about 1430, go back and see where you end up in history, and how pleasant Christianity was back then.
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You're preaching to the choir here; in case you were unaware, I'm a hard-core atheist! I agree that Christianity was very bad back then.
| Fake wrote: |
In 2000, most terrorist attacks were deployed in Colombia. Who were responsible for most casualties I don't know, but a total of 405 people seem to have died from terrorist attacks.
In 2001 most terrorist attacks were again deployed in Colombia. There seem to have been slightly over 3 500 people killed in terrorist attacks in 2001
After 2001 I cannot find accurate stats right now of where most terrorist attacks were taking place. but about 725 people sem to have died in terrorist attacks in 2002, and about 675 in 2003
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This is interesting, and those are much higher numbers than I expected. Still, I'll bet that Muslims killed a lot more people. Another important thing to note is that FARC is not a religious group, and their terrorist attacks are not based on any religious ideology. Same for the IRA and ETA and groups like that; religion played a very small roll in their ideology. By contrast, Muslim terrorist attacks are religiously-based.
It seems like the only religion that seems to consistently participate in violent terrorist attacks against civilians on any large scale is Islam. Do you agree with this statement?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2006 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, no, I don't agree with that statement.
It is not the religion that cause terrorists, it's men, using/perverting religion for their own goals that create terrorists.
And, yes, I'm fully aware of that you're an atheist, just as I assume you're aware of me being a secular humanist.
It's not the fault of an religious ideology that men with ambitions use the religion to to gain their own purpouses.
It's not the fault of Muhammad that some men 1400 years later messes with his teachings, nor is it the fault of Jesus (if he did indeed exist), that some men corrupt his teachings 2000 years later, nor is it the fault of Moses, that some 3000 years down the road, some men corrupt the teachings found in their religious texts.
Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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Pondering
Lion King
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1394
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 01, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| Fake wrote: |
And, yes, I'm fully aware of that you're an atheist, just as I assume you're aware of me being a secular humanist.
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I was not aware of that. I, too consider myself to be a secular humanist. Do you read 'Humanist Perspectives'? It's a great little quarterly publication from British Columbia.
| Fake wrote: |
It's not the fault of Muhammad that some men 1400 years later messes with his teachings, nor is it the fault of Jesus (if he did indeed exist), that some men corrupt his teachings 2000 years later, nor is it the fault of Moses, that some 3000 years down the road, some men corrupt the teachings found in their religious texts.
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Yes, it is at least partly their fault! If they would have done a better job with their scriptures, then the Bible and Koran wouldn't be corruptable! The fact that people can SO EASILY corrupt the messages in scriputres is a testament to how ambiguously ithey were all written.
So yes, I agree with you when you say that the terrorists are perverting the teachings in the Koran, but that wouldn't be possible if its author would have put some kind of checks and balances in against that being possible. Humans are evil; they will corrupt whenever they can and sieze power whenever they can. They will use scripture to justify their abuses whenever they can. Scripture should have internal safeguards to make this as difficult as possible. Clearly the Koran does not have such safeguards. A simple, "You shall not, under ANY circumstances, attack civilians. If you do you will burn in hellfire for all eternity." in the Koran would have made it MUCH more difficult for Muslim terrorists to justify their evil deeds.
Another issue is women's rights. The fact that women have very few rights across the entire Muslim world clearly shows that the Koran doesn't contain a sufficient number of safeguards protecting them and promoting respect for them. It clearly wasn't very-well written. This serves as good evidence showing that it was not divinely inspired; had God actually inspired the Koran, then He in his infinite wisdom would have foreseen that people would pervert its teachings and He would have overemphasized those parts to make them less pervertable.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | 2. Islam's historical roots are much more violent than Christianity's roots. This can be seen in both the actions of its leaders as well as how the religions spread. Jesus was a mellow, peace-loving, hippie-like pacifict. In contrast, the prophet Mohammed was a warmonger. Christianty spread relatively peacefully, whereas Islam was spread by the sword through military conquest.
Anyways, those are my two cents about Islam. |
That is an unbelievably outdated cliché, and I think the majority of people have acknowledged that, realised there is no basis for that argument, and have moved on. Please refrain from using such a hurtful and unfounded claim.
To quote the Prof. once again,
| Quote: | | "The theory of Islam and Sword for instance is not heard now frequently in any quarter worth the name. The principle of Islam that there is no compulsion in religion is well known. Gibbon, a historian of world repute says, "A pernicious tenet has been imputed to Mohammadans, the duty of extirpating all the religions by sword." This charge based on ignorance and bigotry, says the eminent historian, is refuted by Quran, by history of Musalman conquerors and by their public and legal toleration of Christian worship. The great success of Mohammad's life had been effected by sheer moral force, without a stroke of sword." |
Indonesia, the worlds largest population of Muslims in the world, embraced Islam without the stroke of a sword- not one Muslim soldier landed on its shores.
It is made abundantly clear in Islam, that there is no compulsion in religion. It is neither right for someone to enforce their faith on another against their will, nor is it practical. How long can a person stay within a religion if they are bitter at that very same religion that was enforced upon them? Not very long. Islam doesn’t approve of any form of action or policy of forced conversion and strongly condemns it. The following verse in the Qur’an refers to this principle,
“Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error; Whoever rejects Evil and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah hears and knows all things.”
[Surah Baqara 2:256]
The allegation from some prejudiced persons that Muslims are keen on ‘Jihad’ to spread Islam is totally without any foundation. The following verse of the Qur’an clearly teaches Muslims how to spread the message of Islam,
“Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: For your Lord knows best who has strayed from His Path and who receives Guidance.”
[Sura Nahl 16:125]
Unlike the Christians, Muslims don’t have large scaled missionary type institutions. Billions of dollars are being spent on Christian missionary organisations to buy converts among the poor nations of the world, and even Pres. Carter was actively involved in missionary work I believe. The rapid expansion of Islam throughout the world and as is continuing today, is a testament to the simplicity and beauty of this religion. It is also a testimony to the fact that people aren’t so dumb that they can’t distinguish between right and wrong, truth and falsehood. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | 2. Islam's historical roots are much more violent than Christianity's roots. This can be seen in both the actions of its leaders as well as how the religions spread. Jesus was a mellow, peace-loving, hippie-like pacifict. In contrast, the prophet Mohammed was a warmonger. Christianty spread relatively peacefully, whereas Islam was spread by the sword through military conquest.
Anyways, those are my two cents about Islam. |
That is an unbelievably outdated cliché, and I think the majority of people have acknowledged that, realised there is no basis for that argument, and have moved on. Please refrain from using such a hurtful and unfounded claim. |
It may or may not be well-founded in what it says about Islam, but it's still not true. Christianity didn't spread "relatively peacefully" at all. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:37 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | It may or may not be well-founded in what it says about Islam, but it's still not true. Christianity didn't spread "relatively peacefully" at all. |
I was talking about the early years. Jesus didn't ever lead any wars. I agree that later on, Christians got very nasty.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Ah, okay.
Well, it didn't really spread much while Jesus was alive, either.  |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:41 am Post subject: |
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| Tiptronic wrote: |
The allegation from some prejudiced persons that Muslims are keen on ‘Jihad’ to spread Islam is totally without any foundation. The following verse of the Qur’an clearly teaches Muslims how to spread the message of Islam,
“Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: For your Lord knows best who has strayed from His Path and who receives Guidance.”
[Sura Nahl 16:125] |
This may technically be true, but certainly there are a significant number of Muslims out there who DO support Jihad, regardless of what the Koran says.
Incidentally, I was told that the Koran calls for all atheists to be killed. Is this true?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Ah, okay.
Well, it didn't really spread much while Jesus was alive, either. |
Ok, well even 100 (200?) years after Christ's death, Christianity was the persecutee, not the persecutee.
In any case, my point is that Jesus was a nice, peace-loving hippie guy, whereas Mohammed was not. The nature of a religion's prophet can't help but affect it. Jesus was against the use of violence, even in self-defense. Mohammed was not averse to violence. That is important.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Incidentally, I was told that the Koran calls for all atheists to be killed. Is this true? |
I think the OT calls for it too. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7644
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | P1234567890 wrote: | | Incidentally, I was told that the Koran calls for all atheists to be killed. Is this true? |
I think the OT calls for it too. |
This is disconcerting... It means that if there were actually any Christians, Jews, OR Muslims that actually took their faith literally, I'd have a lot of people gunning for me! 
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon May 22, 2006 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| 2 Chronicles 15:13 is an example of this, though it is referring to a specific event. |
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Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 9:45 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
The allegation from some prejudiced persons that Muslims are keen on ‘Jihad’ to spread Islam is totally without any foundation. The following verse of the Qur’an clearly teaches Muslims how to spread the message of Islam,
“Invite (all) to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: For your Lord knows best who has strayed from His Path and who receives Guidance.”
[Sura Nahl 16:125] |
This may technically be true, but certainly there are a significant number of Muslims out there who DO support Jihad, regardless of what the Koran says.
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But Jihad to spread the message of Islam? Oh no. You dont see militants with AK47s in one hand and the Qur'an in the other, walking the streets NY, demanding ppl convert to Islam.
Jihad to defend oneself, to fight an oppressor, yes.
| Quote: | | Incidentally, I was told that the Koran calls for all atheists to be killed. Is this true? |
did they refer you to any verse in particular? |
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