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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1127
Location: arizona
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 Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:42 pm Post subject: reply |
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you just don't have any credibility
May God bless, golfjack |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| golfjack wrote: | you just don't have any credibility
May God bless, golfjack |
Your mom doesn't have any credibility.
What is this, high school? Do some damned research!
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:44 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| golfjack wrote: | you just don't have any credibility
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Actually, Bush, Cheney, and everyone in their cabinet as well as Tom Delay, Jack Abramoff, Scooter Libby, and Brian J. Doyle lack credibility, and that's a tremendous understatement; they're immoral and evil, and they've done a lot to hurt the U.S.
And if you really think that these Republicans are somehow good people, then that speaks very poorly for your judgement.
As for my credibility, I am a trained logician, and I know how to analyze facts and arguments. I also like to think that I am well-informed about politics.
How do you justify your support for the Republican party (despite how badly they've been tainted by the cretins above)?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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i am against abortion but in regards to the present conversation...i hate to say it...but i am in full agrement with p38  ...
bush has shown he is less than honest and he has no qualms about sending young people to kill and die when he would not go to veitnam himself....i think if the 911 crisis...he ran out to wyoming or idaho or somewhere and hid in a hole 4000 feet in the ground and left a nation under attsck that he is the leader of to fend for themselves....please don't say he had no choice and had to obey the secret service...i have a reason to believe that would be a lie...
i see a coward when i look at bush...nothing but a coward...sending other young people to kill and die for his lies....
i find it hard to believe that bush cares in the least for the unborn babies, when he is responsible for murdering many babies in iraq and for what...because some man threatened to kill his daddy over ten years before...i see very few of his actions suitable to be called CHRISTian according to my bible..... just how i see it....but i too have no credibility... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | i am against abortion but in regards to the present conversation...i hate to say it...but i am in full agrement with p38 ...
bush has shown he is less than honest and he has no qualms about sending young people to kill and die when he would not go to veitnam himself....i think if the 911 crisis...he ran out to wyoming or idaho or somewhere and hid in a hole 4000 feet in the ground and left a nation under attsck that he is the leader of to fend for themselves....please don't say he had no choice and had to obey the secret service...i have a reason to believe that would be a lie...
i see a coward when i look at bush...nothing but a coward...sending other young people to kill and die for his lies....
i find it hard to believe that bush cares in the least for the unborn babies, when he is responsible for murdering many babies in iraq and for what...because some man threatened to kill his daddy over ten years before...i see very few of his actions suitable to be called CHRISTian according to my bible..... |
Amen! But don't stop there; what about Delay, Abramoff, Cheney, Doyle, and the rest of their ilk? Those guys are also Republicans that golfjack seems to be so fond of.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1127
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: reply |
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To each his own.
May God bless, golfjack |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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p38,
since you ask...i feel the same way about all his henchmen and cronies...  as cowards run in packs... |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: reply |
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| golfjack wrote: | To each his own.
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Not really; you are of course entitled to your opinion that Republicans are moral (however wrong your opinion may be), but politics isn't about opinions. When you go and vote for Republicans, you help to put them into power, and then it isn't really 'to each his own' anymore; at that point your opinion becomes my own.
Just answer this for me: do you really think that Bush, Cheney, Abramoff, Delay, etc. are all moral people?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | p38,
since you ask...i feel the same way about all his henchmen and cronies... as cowards run in packs... |
Well said, seldomscene; well said.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 9:05 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Greetings folks! Just a quick post here. (Quick for me anyway. )
FFT – I never claimed to be a single-issue voter, I believe that I made mention of the fact that I DO pay attention to other contemporary issues that are very important. But, in terms of politics and government… I do not believe there is anything more important than protecting innocent life. The decision reached in ‘Roe V Wade’ was an immoral ruling and (in part) an unfortunate result of previous rulings that paved the way. I do understand what you mean though. But please do not make the mistake of assuming that an individual who cares deeply about the issue of abortion turns their head away from other sin and other issues that need to be addressed.
P(numbers ) – I notice that you are again charging a group of people with things that should only (fairly) be applied to some. You are implying that “Republicans” are responsible for that list you provided. They are not. And your words themselves reflect (again) your willingness to result to sensationalism. All sin is wrong – and only serves to separate us from Him – but crimes against humanity are certainly some of the worst. Nothing on your “list” truly compares to the crimes being done to innocent children – with full consent of our laws. If your intent was to further demonstrate that putting all of one’s faith in a political party can result in disappointing results (as FFT mentioned) – then I agree. I’m not commenting on the context of your reply here… but begging you to ask yourself… what was REALLY the purpose of that list you provided? To convince other people that there are legal issues more important than abortion…
or to convince yourself?
I respect and acknowledge the important function(s) that our lawfully elected and appointed leaders are called to do. That does not mean I always agree with them – or disagree for that matter. I follow and put my complete trust in God – not a President, not a Political Party, nor any secular authority. I hope and pray that I will have the strength to let Him guide me.
Abortion is at the far front of the serious issues that need to be dealt with… in my mind… and in my heart.
I will pray that one day you will share this conviction.
May the Lord be with you all!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| JasonB82ABN wrote: | | But please do not make the mistake of assuming that an individual who cares deeply about the issue of abortion turns their head away from other sin and other issues that need to be addressed. |
But nothing is more important than protecting innocent life, according to you. Somehow, this makes me doubt that you are anything but a single-issue voter.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
P(numbers ) – I notice that you are again charging a group of people with things that should only (fairly) be applied to some. You are implying that “Republicans” are responsible for that list you provided. They are not. And your words themselves reflect (again) your willingness to result to sensationalism.
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Not really. Firstly, I would argue that Bush and his cabinet together with Delay constitute a huge chunk of the Republican leadership. Since the leadership is corrupt, it affects the entire party. The Republican party has literally been led by immoral criminals for a number of years now.
But secondly, Bush wouldn't have been able to go and do all of his evil things without the support of his party. So yes, there are a few good guys like John McCain that happen to be Republicans, but even they deserve some blame.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
All sin is wrong – and only serves to separate us from Him – but crimes against humanity are certainly some of the worst. Nothing on your “list” truly compares to the crimes being done to innocent children – with full consent of our laws.
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You kind of walked into what I'm about to say... By labeling abortion as a 'crime against humanity' or the 'murder of innocent children', pro-lifers are committing the standard textbook fallacy of appealing to pity. This is not ok; it is a fallacy. These words are a direct appeal to people's emotions. This is particularly bad since you just accused me of sensationalism.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
Abortion is at the far front of the serious issues that need to be dealt with… in my mind… and in my heart.
I will pray that one day you will share this conviction.
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I happen to agree with you that there should be no abortions, but not because they are illegal. In an ideal world, abortions would be perfectly legal, but no unwanted pregnancies would ever happen. I think that if Christians really think that abortions are so evil, then they should put their considerable political clout behind backing school sex-ed and contraception programs. Unfortunately, most pro-lifers also happen to be staunchly against sex ed and contraception availability for teenagers.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Greetings again folks!
FFT – like I said, I understand what you mean. I am definitely an “issue voter,” but not a “single-issue voter.” We all (hopefully) have our priorities, do we not?
P-numbers, you said...
| Quote: | | The Republican party has literally been led by immoral criminals for a number of years now. |
According to what standards are they criminals? What exactly is your school (or schools) of thought here P-numbers? Your arguing jurisprudence – but don’t give any indication where this comes from. My philosophy on abortion falls pretty squarely in the school of “natural law” - your indictment cannot fall into this category. So, what basis do you have for charging a large group of people with these crimes? Are you a positivist, a historicist, a realist, or what? And if you can say which one you are – how is your assertion and charge that Republicans “have been led by immoral criminals” proven based on jurisprudence? Do you really believe what you’re saying – or are you just throwing words like that out there for the purpose of chumming the waters and/or trying to promote some creative thinking? I disagree with your point if you actually mean and believe what you are saying – but I do not if you are just throwing it out there for discussion. 
| Quote: | | But secondly, Bush wouldn't have been able to go and do all of his evil things without the support of his party. So yes, there are a few good guys like John McCain that happen to be Republicans, but even they deserve some blame. |
Sure, they all deserve the blame! But, why stop there!? I’ve personally been held responsible and met with open hostility  because of things “America” did long before I was born – but, why shouldn’t I have been!? I’m an American!
If the entire Republican party is to blame - so am I, so are you, and so are all American citizens. But why stop there? All North Americans too! Canada and Mexico are our neighbors; they should logically inherit some of the blame. Why not South America? The Venezuelans? I’m sure Mr. Chavez deserves part of the blame, as well as Evo Morales or any of the “interesting” South American leaders - and all of their people – we are all “Americans” after all! Therefore, ALL Americans deserve the blame – North or South! What about our Australian brothers and sisters? Those evil Aussies! 
I’m mostly joking with you here P. (I hope you know that! ) But, I also hope you see my point! 
| Quote: | | You kind of walked into what I'm about to say... By labeling abortion as a 'crime against humanity' or the 'murder of innocent children', pro-lifers are committing the standard textbook fallacy of appealing to pity. This is not ok; it is a fallacy. These words are a direct appeal to people's emotions. This is particularly bad since you just accused me of sensationalism. |
The labels “crime against humanity” and “murder of innocent children” are different labels my friend. And neither – applied to abortion – are fallacies. They fall into the black and the gray areas (respectively.) The first one is a completely accurate and legitimate title for the “action” of having or taking an active role in procuring an abortion. Whether you agree or disagree is immaterial – the use of “crime” can legitimately be applied to acts that have “not had substantive law created to define the obligation” and still have a “reasonable controversy.” Just because the jury is still out on a particular issue (“reasonable controversy”) – does not mean that it isn’t a crime.
You may not personally like the phrase – “Abortion is a crime.” But, your disapproval does not make the statement untrue, inaccurate, an example of sensationalism, or a “standard textbook fallacy.” I will agree with you on at least part of what you said… you are probably right that these words can be used as a direct appeal to people’s emotions! Most words are! How is that “not ok” though?
The second: “murder of innocent children” is more debatable – it’s in the gray I guess! And you may have a point about whether or not it is a completely valid term, because in order for an action to be classified as a “murder” – fairly specific requirements need to be met. But, in many cases – people involved in an abortion DO meet these requirements. (We can discuss those in another thread if you’d like to start one! ) So, although I admit that “murder of innocent children” might not be the most accurate term – it’s not inaccurate either.
| Quote: | | I happen to agree with you that there should be no abortions, but not because they are illegal. In an ideal world, abortions would be perfectly legal, but no unwanted pregnancies would ever happen. |
I’m glad that you agree that abortions are at least something you think should not happen – you’re getting warmer my friend! It’s a short trip from where you are now, to fully realizing the implications of what you’re saying – and feeling the conviction that follows!
I’m going to twist what you meant here a little to illustrate a point. I think that in an ideal world, there would be no abortions, no rape, no violence, no murder – basically no crimes that require the state to impose harsh or severe sanctions, because people would not commit these actions. But, we are not in that world (yet ) and BECAUSE we are not, these restrictions and penalties must be put into place for the protection of all people.
| Quote: | | I think that if Christians really think that abortions are so evil, then they should put their considerable political clout behind backing school sex-ed and contraception programs. Unfortunately, most pro-lifers also happen to be staunchly against sex ed and contraception availability for teenagers. |
Did you forget that you were replying to a Catholic here my friend? I'm actually glad that you, a "non-prolifer" are demonstrating the logical relation between abortion and contraception - thank you for bringing it up!
I don’t necessarily disagree with sex-education, it depends on what is being taught – I DO however “staunchly disagree” (I love your choice of words! ) with any type of artificial contraception and I especially disagree with its “availability for teenagers.” Not because I "blindly follow what the Church says" as some of my friends here on this forum have assumed - but because I cared enough to find out WHY the Church teaches what she does. And when I learned more about why contraception is against God's plan for all His people, my conviction followed!
Contraception is an issue many pro-life advocates just completely ignore – but it is closely related to abortion, and indeed... some methods of contraception ARE forms of abortion. (But they are all contrary to His will - abortifacient or not.) I’m more than willing to discuss contraception with you (or anybody.) So, let me know if you’d like to debate or discuss it!
In any case – thank you for your time. And… remember... “Abortion is a crime!”
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 7563
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Jason,
Thanks for your well-thought-out reply. I enjoyed reading it!
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
P-numbers, you said...
| Quote: | | The Republican party has literally been led by immoral criminals for a number of years now. |
According to what standards are they criminals? What exactly is your school (or schools) of thought here P-numbers? Your arguing jurisprudence – but don’t give any indication where this comes from. My philosophy on abortion falls pretty squarely in the school of “natural law” - your indictment cannot fall into this category. So, what basis do you have for charging a large group of people with these crimes? Are you a positivist, a historicist, a realist, or what? And if you can say which one you are – how is your assertion and charge that Republicans “have been led by immoral criminals” proven based on jurisprudence? Do you really believe what you’re saying – or are you just throwing words like that out there for the purpose of chumming the waters and/or trying to promote some creative thinking? I disagree with your point if you actually mean and believe what you are saying – but I do not if you are just throwing it out there for discussion.
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Well, this is a complicated question to answer. I've made all sorts of allegations about Republicans being immoral and even criminal. Some of them are criminal by the definition that a criminal is someone who broke the law. Others are criminals under the rule of "natural law" as you so put it. Others yet at are criminals according to the Bible. And by no means are these three groups disjoint.
First let's do the easy ones:
Jack Abramoff, Brian Doyle, Scooter Libby, and Tom Delay fall in all three categories. They all clearly broke laws written in the law books, and it's pretty obvious that they're going to be convicted / take some kind of plea bargain.
Now let's do the harder ones: George Bush, Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, and to a lesser extent all other Republicans in power might all be criminals according to the law, but they certainly are criminals according to natural law as well as the Bible.
Here are the crimes that they are guilty of:
1. Not actually trying to catch / Kill Osama Bin Laden, and instead focusing on Iraq. This is a betrayal of their country, which I would argue is tantamount to treason.
2. Blitzing the American people using mass-media in order to fear monger as much as possible and thereby build support for the Iraq war. This was highly calculated, and highly dishonest. They kept saying things like "mushroom cloud in New York City" and plain out lied that they knew Sadam had WMDs, and that there was a clear link between Saddam and Al Quaeda (even though Osama hated Saddam, who was secular, almost as much as he hates us). These were bold-faced, calculated lies designed by their political scientists in order to manipulate the American people into supporting the war (some huge percentage of Fox News viewers believed that some of the Sept. 11th hijackers were Iraqi, when in fact none of them were).
3. Actually going to war with Iraq. This is immoral for a number of reasons:
a) Saddam was not a threat to the U.S., so the war was unnecessary; there were no WMDs, and there was no serious link with Al Quaeda.
b) War is almost always immoral; just read what Jesus had to say about turning the other cheek in the Bible.
c) Thousands of good U.S. soldiers died and more than ten thousand have been seriously injured in the war.
d) Tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis died in the war and the ensuing violence.
e) It has destabalized the region and given Iran a huge amount of leeway in pursuing their nuclear weapons project.
f) It has inflamed radical Islam and thereby hurt the war against terror.
g) Wasting hundreds of billions of dollars that could have been used to educate, feed, immunize, insure, etc. millions of Americans.
4. Pretending to be Christians and then going against pretty much everything that Jesus ever taught. I'm an atheist, and I'm more of a Christian than Bush or Cheney. All they do is SAY that they're Christians, and then turn around and ACT in ways that are totally against Christianity.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
Sure, they all deserve the blame! But, why stop there!? I’ve personally been held responsible and met with open hostility because of things “America” did long before I was born – but, why shouldn’t I have been!? I’m an American!
If the entire Republican party is to blame - so am I, so are you, and so are all American citizens. But why stop there? All North Americans too! Canada and Mexico are our neighbors; they should logically inherit some of the blame. Why not South America? The Venezuelans? I’m sure Mr. Chavez deserves part of the blame, as well as Evo Morales or any of the “interesting” South American leaders - and all of their people – we are all “Americans” after all! Therefore, ALL Americans deserve the blame – North or South! What about our Australian brothers and sisters? Those evil Aussies!
I’m mostly joking with you here P. (I hope you know that! ) But, I also hope you see my point!
|
I see your point, but if you have to assign numbers to the blame, the number that Wolfowitz (or anyone else in the top levels of government) gets is MUCH larger than yours or that of the average Venezuelan mango farmer. I hope you see my point!
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
The labels “crime against humanity” and “murder of innocent children” are different labels my friend. And neither – applied to abortion – are fallacies. They fall into the black and the gray areas (respectively.) The first one is a completely accurate and legitimate title for the “action” of having or taking an active role in procuring an abortion. Whether you agree or disagree is immaterial – the use of “crime” can legitimately be applied to acts that have “not had substantive law created to define the obligation” and still have a “reasonable controversy.” Just because the jury is still out on a particular issue (“reasonable controversy”) – does not mean that it isn’t a crime.
You may not personally like the phrase – “Abortion is a crime.” But, your disapproval does not make the statement untrue, inaccurate, an example of sensationalism, or a “standard textbook fallacy.” I will agree with you on at least part of what you said… you are probably right that these words can be used as a direct appeal to people’s emotions! Most words are! How is that “not ok” though?
|
An 'appeal to pity' is a fallacy because ALL it appeals to is emotions. An argument is an objective, rational discourse grounded in logic. Emotions pollute this process. They have absolutely no place whatsoever in trying to convince someone of something. Using appeals to pity really is not ok. It lowers the standard of discourse to the basest aspects of human nature rather than to our enlightened rational sides.
I don't disagree with your statement that "abortion is a crime" in the way that you mean it. It clearly is not technically illegal, but you are entitled to your opinion that it is immoral. However, when you use the phrase "crime against humanity", that really is a terrible fallacious appeal to emotions. That phrase is most strongly associated with the Nazis and the holocaust. Whether or not it is your intention, every time you use this phrase with respect to abortion, you are scoring free sympathy points on account of the fact that those words are (possibly subconsciously) associated with the holocaust in people's minds. Getting free points based on word associations is not ok.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
The second: “murder of innocent children” is more debatable – it’s in the gray I guess! And you may have a point about whether or not it is a completely valid term, because in order for an action to be classified as a “murder” – fairly specific requirements need to be met. But, in many cases – people involved in an abortion DO meet these requirements. (We can discuss those in another thread if you’d like to start one! ) So, although I admit that “murder of innocent children” might not be the most accurate term – it’s not inaccurate either.
|
It is inaccurate, and objectively so; I can easily prove it. My strongest argument isn't even against the 'murder' part; your use of the term 'children' is objectively wrong, though. You cannot use the word 'children' when talking about abortion. Abortions do not kill children. They do not even kill toddlers, or babies. They kill fetuses. It wouldn't even be ok to call them toddlers or babies, but you've skipped those two entire steps and gone straight to children! Again, you're getting free arguments points by using inaccurate terms. Pro-lifers never use the term 'killing the fetus' because it seems too cold and clinical. 'Murdering children' gets a much better emotional response. As for the murder part, it's bad, too. The vast majority of abortions involve killing a tiny little fetus that resembles a tadpole or blob more than a human being. The word 'murder' evokes all sorts of images of criminals shooting or stabbing normal people. Again, this gives you free argument points.
Anyways, I hope I've explained why logicians think that it is not ok to use appeals to emotion.
| JasonB82ABN wrote: |
| Quote: | | I think that if Christians really think that abortions are so evil, then they should put their considerable political clout behind backing school sex-ed and contraception programs. Unfortunately, most pro-lifers also happen to be staunchly against sex ed and contraception availability for teenagers. |
Did you forget that you were replying to a Catholic here my friend? I'm actually glad that you, a "non-prolifer" are demonstrating the logical relation between abortion and contraception - thank you for bringing it up!
I don’t necessarily disagree with sex-education, it depends on what is being taught – I DO however “staunchly disagree” (I love your choice of words! ) with any type of artificial contraception and I especially disagree with its “availability for teenagers.” Not because I "blindly follow what the Church says" as some of my friends here on this forum have assumed - but because I cared enough to find out WHY the Church teaches what she does. And when I learned more about why contraception is against God's plan for all His people, my conviction followed!
Contraception is an issue many pro-life advocates just completely ignore – but it is closely related to abortion, and indeed... some methods of contraception ARE forms of abortion. (But they are all contrary to His will - abortifacient or not.) I’m more than willing to discuss contraception with you (or anybody.) So, let me know if you’d like to debate or discuss it! |
The world is already overpopulated, so NOT using contraception and having lots of children is a sin.
You seem to think that contraception and abortion are related issues; I would argue that they have an exactly inverse relationship. If you are against contraception, then you are basically guaranteeing that there will be more unwanted pregnancies. Therefore, being against contraception guarantees that there will be more abortions. If you think that abortions (or murders, as you like to think of them) are worse than "spilling one's seed", then you have no choice but to embrace contraception. You have to go with the lesser of the two evils, because you can't get rid of them both.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="P1234567890"]Not really. Firstly, I would argue that Bush and his cabinet together with Delay constitute a huge chunk of the Republican leadership. Since the leadership is corrupt, it affects the entire party. The Republican party has literally been led by immoral criminals for a number of years now.
But secondly, Bush wouldn't have been able to go and do all of his evil things without the support of his party. So yes, there are a few good guys like John McCain that happen to be Republicans, but even they deserve some blame.
tss says,
i was think about him last night...i agree that mccain is a good guy basically, though yes he too is partly responsible for the pol pot regime we now have in office...but like we all agree a relatively good guy with sincere mpotives from what we can see...
but lets look at mccain again...here is a man who did his service honorable...though i don't agree with the vietnam war...he obeyed the law and did what he was asked to do...he was taken prisoner and tortured...a true hero...
and what does his own party do to him when he runs for president...they use his honorable, though misguided, deeds to question his mental stablity and try to make him look like a nut case because he was held captive...and instead of embracing him..a man who did his service, came home, got over his problems, and led a very successful life in politics showing the republican claims to be unfounded...the party shames him, ridicules him and disgraces what he did...and then the same party embraces a coward who has done nothing for his country but lie, even before he stole the office...it amazes me...
like kerry...another real hero...his men that served with him...say they wouldn't want to fight under the leadership another because he showed himself to be brave, faithful, selfless and true in the heat of combat...
even his opposers(the commander of the other boat that defamated kerry)agruments prove kerry to be a leader...because the opposer who tried to lessen kerry's good actions, said i was watching kerry when this and that was happening and it's not like his own men say....
well, kerry must have been quite a man in battle if the other commander did nothing but watch his every action to see what he would do while bullets were flying throiugh the air....the opposers arguement was against his own case...it was nonsense...
i'm not political...i already have a KING and will bow to no other, GOD willing, nor will i choose another to rule over me...but the republican party never ceases to top itself when it comes to evil deeds and contradictions...
sorry...didn't mean to get off the topic...theseldomscene... |
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