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andy82
Tadpole
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 16
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 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:21 am Post subject: representational or literal |
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when reading the bible i get the feeling that the words are mainly representatonal and that this is how they arear relevent as times and centuries go on.
am i right to be thinkingthis or should the i take the words of the scrptures more literally when i am reading them. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 12:05 pm Post subject: |
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Both  |
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tradcat
Not So Newbie
Joined: 13 Aug 2005
Posts: 9
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject: Representational or literal |
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This is exactly why we need the Catholic Church to give the correct interpretation of scripture.
5 people can read the same passage and get different answers.
The Catholic Church is the only authority that has the correct interpretation. When the Church Fathers unanimously agree on interpretation of a certain passage it is that unanimouty (spelling??) which is taken to be the correct one.
The modern principle of bible alone and our own interpretation suffices is incorrect. That is how we get the many false prophets that Our Lord warned against in St Matthew's gospel VI: 15,16 |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1122
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:21 pm Post subject: reply |
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Tradcat, You are sadlly mistaken. My interpreter is the Holy Spirit, not some men.
May God bless, golfjack |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: |
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| Amen, Jack. |
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truthreigns
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Representational or literal |
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| tradcat wrote: | This is exactly why we need the Catholic Church to give the correct interpretation of scripture.
5 people can read the same passage and get different answers.
The Catholic Church is the only authority that has the correct interpretation. When the Church Fathers unanimously agree on interpretation of a certain passage it is that unanimouty (spelling??) which is taken to be the correct one. Part of the quote above |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was raised Catholic AND I believed as you do because it was pounded into my head from the time I was of "age to understand.I was supposed to believe that the Pope was the only one who knew the correct interpretation and passed it down to the bishops and priests etc.
I got the Duoay-Rheims Bible online. It reads like mine. Some words are different but I looked them up in a Greek concordance. They mean the same.
John16:13: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. (your Bible) Mine says "guide you into all truths."
| Quote: | Your annotaion:
26 "Teach you all things"... Here the Holy Ghost is promised to the apostles and their successors, particularly, in order to teach them all truth, and to preserve them from error. |
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
FROM DUOAY-REIMS BIBLE
JOHN 16:6 But because I have spoken these things to you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete (Holy Ghost) will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he is come, he will convince the world of sin, and of justice, and of judgment. 9 Of sin: because they believed not in me. 10 And of justice: because I go to the Father; and you shall see me no longer.
12 I have yet many things to say to you: but you cannot bear them now. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will teach you all truth. For he shall not speak of himself; but what things soever he shall hear, he shall speak; and the things that are to come, he shall shew you. 14 He shall glorify me; because he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it to you. 15 All things whatsoever the Father hath, are mine. Therefore I said, that he shall receive of mine, and shew it to you.
26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Acts 2:1 And when the days of the Pentecost were accomplished, they were all together in one place: 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a mighty wind coming, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them parted tongues as it were of fire, and it sat upon every one of them: 4 And they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost, and they began to speak with divers tongues, according as the Holy Ghost gave them to speak.
5 Now there were dwelling at Jerusalem, Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. (My thought---at that time there were so many people from many nations. Were only 12 apostles able to speak in many languages at once so everyone could hear? But if ALL were filled with the Holy Ghost then everyone in the room were able to give the message to the great multitude.
41 They therefore that received his word, were baptized (with the Holy Ghost and I do know from my Catholic teaching that besides water baptism there is also a spiritual Baptism as on Pentecost.); and there were added in that day about three thousand souls. 42 And they were persevering in the doctrine of the apostles, and in the communication of the breaking of bread, and in prayers.
Now I ask what do you make of this? It is so plain. God gives all who accept Jesus as their Lord and savior, the ability to interpret the Bible as the Holy Ghost “teaches”( your Bible) or guides (KJV) each individual as he opens his heart to hear the truth and not to just a select few.
Yes Jesus taught the apostles directly but they passed it down to others like Timothy for instance to carry on what Jesus taught. It was passed down through the ages to all God has called to preach his Word. All Christians can witness to non believers and give the Word as they are taught.
Paul was not with the original 12. God Himself picked him personally to preach the gospel. He taught Timothy. He warned him about false teachers and false doctrines. Paul knew about all of them because he killed Christians who didn’t believe like he did. As far as being Catholic is concerned, catholic means universal. That means One God and one truth which Jesus taught from the beginning for all people and all nations who will listen.
Acts 2:16& 17” But this is that which was spoken of by the prophet Joel: 17 And it shall come to pass, in the last days, (saith the Lord,) I will pour out of my Spirit upon ALL flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams. 18 And upon my servants indeed, and upon my handmaids will I pour out in those days of my spirit, and they shall prophesy. (speak by inspiration from the Holy Ghost)
For everyone is equal in God’s eyes. Not just a chosen few. Many may go to Church because they think they have to but have no idea why they are there. Going to church does not get one to heaven no matter what his personal beliefs are if he doesn’t have real faith In Jesus. Might just be something they have been taught but never reached their heart. God alone knows who belong to Him.
26 For you are all the children of God by faith, in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you be Christ's, then are you the seed of Abraham, heirs according to the promise.
GOD”S TRUTH STANDS ALONE. It is taught to each individual when he is willing to hear what the Holy Spirit tells him. Man can point to the truth but it is the Holy Spirit who affirms what he hears. God bless you as you consider what the Bible is teaching, not just a man’s idea. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 714
Location: WV
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Then who decides when your interpetation and my interpetation differ? How can the Holy Spirit tell you one thing and me another? Where can the unity of Christianity be found? Where is the truth Jesus left us? We say it's in the Bible. O.K. But who's interpetation? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 4:23 pm Post subject: |
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Such little faith in the spirit of God?
Context first and foremost, and then hermeunetics (sp?). Easily 90% of bad interpretation can be uncovered through a simple look at context and the rest can be sorted out by using the bible to interpret itself (ie; if an interpretation of one passage disagrees with another passage, the interpretation is flawed.)
All this of course is governed by the lead of the Holy Spirit, and such little faith in the power and abiltiy of the Spirit of God will result in faulty interpretation. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 714
Location: WV
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 5:46 am Post subject: |
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| If it's so simple how come we have 33,000 different Christian churches each teaching their own particular interpetation? Where is the one with the truth? |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:13 am Post subject: |
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| ...what some believe is not even an issue...there are people on this board that have never met and read different translations...but the basics and even most details of their doctrine are the same....some who read the same translation...and are totally different in doctrine...so translation has little to do with it.... |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 714
Location: WV
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| Posted: Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:11 am Post subject: |
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| I'm sorry, but I don't follow your meaning. What are you saying? |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Greetings folks! Just a quick comment here, if you don’t mind!
| Quote: | | I do know from my Catholic teaching that besides water baptism there is also a spiritual Baptism as on Pentecost. |
Truthreigns – you are very close to the truth, but a little off nonetheless unfortunately! Though I may have misunderstood what you meant (please forgive me if I am incorrect – it’s very possible!  ) but it did seem like you were implying the Church teaches there are other forms of valid Baptism for Christians – if that is what you meant, it is somewhat inaccurate. The Sacrament of Baptism is (nor should it ever be) separated from the physical use of water. He ordained it to be so; therefore Baptism is always associated with water. There are exceptions, but these are literally (and it’s important not to disregard that they are only) exceptions to the rule – one being “Baptism by blood” (or martyrdom) and another being “Baptism by desire” - the biblical basis of which is (primarily I suppose) the example of the good thief, who most likely would have been Baptized had he an opportunity.
| Quote: | | Going to church does not get one to heaven no matter what his personal beliefs are if he doesn’t have real faith In Jesus. |
This is very true my friend! Do you think the Church teaches otherwise?
You should come home to the Church!  You are ALWAYS free to come home! He will always welcome you! And so will the rest of your family.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Greetings RevJP!
| Quote: | | Such little faith in the spirit of God? |
Ha ha JP!  I can see why you might think that! BUT, I don’t think it’s demonstrative of having little faith in God – but only questioning human ability to faithfully interpret the Scriptures! Countless sincere Christians can read the same key passages that a lot of doctrine finds its roots in… and come up with extremely different answers. How is this unfortunate result of "individual interpretation" helpful in finding "truth?" It seems very much like: "Truth is only true, if it's true for you!"
| Quote: | | Context first and foremost, and then hermeunetics (sp?). Easily 90% of bad interpretation can be uncovered through a simple look at context and the rest can be sorted out by using the bible to interpret itself (ie; if an interpretation of one passage disagrees with another passage, the interpretation is flawed.) |
Only 90%? This is very interesting point I think, because I’m not Biblical theologian, scholar, or anything like that. (I’d like to think that I am just a simple – ‘form’ally uneducated - member of the Church’s laity. ) I do have to ask though, where in the Bible does it say we need hermeneutics to understand His Scriptures? Where is your doctrine that the Bible interprets the Bible itself… in the Bible? (Please don’t say "2 Timothy 3:16" – that’s all I ever hear! I beg you! ) I’m not saying that hermeneutics can’t be helpful, but I am curious about why it seems to be such a staple for your Biblical diet. And if this is a truly Biblical concept… why is there so much confusion amongst Christians outside the Church - where the only authoritative interpreter that an individual has to acknowledge is themselves with (hopefully) the Holy Spirit unhindered and moving within them?
| Quote: | | All this of course is governed by the lead of the Holy Spirit, and such little faith in the power and abiltiy of the Spirit of God will result in faulty interpretation. |
I guess the point I’d like to make is…
Faith in the Holy Spirit? “Yes, FOREVER!”
Faith in man’s ability to let the Holy Spirit work through him? “Not always!”
May the Lord be with you!
Jason |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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| i guess there is a lot of confusion outside"the church" for the same reason it is inside "the church"...there is only one church btw...my church..all others are hopelessly lost until they come into the fold of truth as taught in the word through my church....also, if you have some other way of interpreteing the word...some man made idea...please show it to us...also...if you can't handle the truth of what it says, as "that is all you ever hear", why do you want him to explain it to you?...renounce your heresy...join my church and be saved...i say this in love and goofiness.. |
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truthreigns
Tadpole
Joined: 23 Mar 2006
Posts: 22
Location: Pennsylvania, U.S.A.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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+This is copied from the
Duoay-Rheims Bible. Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you in the water unto penance, but he that shall come after me, is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear; he shall baptize you in the Holy Ghost and fire.
From the New American Bible---also Catholic
I am baptizing you with water, for repentance, but the one who is coming after me is mightier than I. I am not worthy to carry his sandals. He will baptize you with the holy Spirit and fire.
Here are two baptisms in your own words if you believe all of your Bible.
Water babtism and with the Holy Spirit and fire (like on fire for the Gospel of Jesus Christ).
Who was John baptizing? Grown ups for the purpose of confessing their sins. Children under the age of reason do not need to be baptized. They don't know about sin as yet.Where is the word limbo that babies go to if they are not baptized? What about a baby who dies in its mothers womb or just right after its birth? There was no time to get a priest.
My church dedicates a baby to say the parents are responsible for bringing up the baby in God's way not in the way of the world. When he gets old enough to understand, he has to make his own decision to follow Jesus. THEN AFTER HIS COMMITMENT, HE SHOULD GET BAPTIZED. This a matter of obedience. Salvation does not depend on baptism alone.
Believing on Jesus John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him might not perish but might have eternal life.
17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him.
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Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
19
The thief on the cross wasn't baptized. Others have received Christ on their death bed or in an accident. They weren't baptized.
John tried to prevent him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and yet you are coming to me?" Below is the obedience answer.
15 Jesus said to him in reply, "Allow it now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he allowed him.
12 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened (for him), and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove (and) coming upon him.
17
And a voice came from the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, 13 with whom I am well pleased."
I'll quit here but there is so much more the Bible has to say---even in your Bibles.
I am at home with Jesus wherever he is. The Catholic church or any other church is not my home. I go where I am led to go where his gospel is preached. Every church, including yours, has some errors in it. Men are imperfect. Only God is true. There are believers in every church. Some go to church but all aren't believers.
John 3:19-23 (from your Bible, too.
The woman said to him, "Sir, I can see that you are a prophet.
Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain; 8 but you people say that the place to worship is in Jerusalem."
Jesus said to her, "Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.
You people worship what you do not understand; we worship what we understand, because salvation is from the Jews.
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth; 9 and indeed the Father seeks such people to worship him.
God is Spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and truth." |
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