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PetriFB
Big Hamster
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 95
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 Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Do you follow the letter of the law, PetriFB? The 613 distinct commandments in the Old Testament? Do you even know what they are? |
My quotations was from NT! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: |
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So? Answer the question.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 7:51 am Post subject: |
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we're working on that down in the Torah forum FFT... 
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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PetriFB
Big Hamster
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | So? Answer the question. |
To my mind rose one of example of the Bible, in which at the bottom of the ark of covenant were the tables of law, but above of the law was mercy seat; this describes it reality, that mercy of God makes the law alive.
And certainly the purpose of it was point out so to the nation of old covenant and also nation of new covenant, that we don’t follow the letter, but living God through Yeshua the Messiah, for only the mercy of God in the Holy Spirit makes letter for alive. Without the Spirit the letter kills and don’t benefit us.
The law came through Moses and grace and truth through Yeshua
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Problem of old covenant nation was, that they raised law higher than the living relationship with God.
Wandering of the faith glorifies Yeshua the Messiah and by that way set Scriptures to the right place; in other words the law was at the bottom of the ark of covenant, and the letter gets life through the mercy of God, for the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah. The law in other words teaching of the word of God is needed, but just in Yeshua the Messiah is possibility live in the mercy, in which the teaching of the word of God through the Holy Spirit brings us ability, that we can live in practise according to the Scriptures.
The mercy brings truth through the Holy Spirit. Mere letter can’t produce life of the Spirit. There also exist danger to follow the law instead of following of the Messiah. In other words follow the letter, but not receive the life, which makes teaching of the word alive in us and in practical life.
Orthodox Jews have the law, but not the Messiah. Messiah is the goal of the law, who is the Lord Yeshua the Messiah. For Christ is the goal of law for righteousness to everyone that believes.
Goal of the law is Yeshua
In other words the purpose of the law is not law itself, even though also the law is good, but purpose of the law is Yeshua the Messiah.
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of law for righteousness to everyone that believes.
In Romans 10:4 is word end, which is in Greek telos and in Hebrew tachelith and both words means also goal and fulfilment.
The law is useful tool, when we grow towards the image of God, but without Yeshua the Messiah and mercy of God on the law is no other value as kill, but through Yeshua from the law comes living.
Law = torah= teaching, advice .
For the Messiah is the goal of law for righteousness to everyone that believes.
In other words the goal of the teaching is Yeshua the Messiah and life in Yeshua.. ...!
Being under the law, many people speak a lot.
Romans 6: .
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
The sin rules flesh of the man, who is under the law, but through grace of God, we are not under the law, but under the grace, in which the fruit of the righteousness grows in the hearts of the disciples of Yeshua.
Gal 5: .
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
He who live in the Spirit of God, he is not under the law, but leading by the Spirit of God.
Being under the law is condition, where people try to live in accordance with law of God without atonement blood of Yeshua and without power of the Holy Spirit. Yeshua didn't destroy the law, but fulfilled it for us. We can’t fulfil the law and we don’t have to fulfil it, for Yeshua fulfilled the law for us. We can now as the disciple of Yeshua the Messiah to grow in the grace and righteousness.
Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
In the power of the Holy Spirit, we in the grace of God and from the grace we live righteously and grow in righteousness, that we can live like that in practise life.
Law can’t made nothing perfect, but Yeshua can
Hebrews 7: .
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,)what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
For the law made nothing perfect, but Yeshua makes, that's why new covenant is better covenant than old covenant.
Ro 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace..
Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Ga 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
We are not under the law, but under the grace. In the tabernacle at the bottom of the ark of covenant were the tables of law, whose above was mercy seat; in other words the grace makes the law alive. Like I said: “The law is useful tool, when we grow towards the image of God, but without Yeshua the Messiah and mercy of God on the law is no other value as kill, but through Yeshua from the law comes living”.
We don’t have any right to live in the sin as the disciple of Yeshua, but our right is live in the grace in the Holy Spirit according to the word of God.
Mercy of God in Yeshua the Messiah through the Holy Spirit makes the law living in the disciple of Yeshua (Law=Torah=teaching, advice).
When I speak from the law of God, which Jesus didn't destroy, I mean the Ten Commandments.
The Ten Commandments
The Ten Commandments come true also in the life of disciple of Yeshua from the mercy of God from the power of the Holy Spirit.
We are not under the orders of old covenant and not under commandments of old covenant, because new and better covenant replaced old one. In the new covenant of course the ten Commandments is valid, because Yeshua didn’t destroy the law. But in the new covenant we grow in obedience through the grace of God. And of course then we also live according to the Ten Commandments:
And God spake all these words, saying, I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
Can we live against those commandments as disciple of new covenant? Of course not. The mercy of God doesn’t replace the law, but makes it alive in the Spirit.
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth..
Goal of the law is not law, but Yeshua for righteousness to everyone, who believes.
The law is accessory to achieving that goal. But in the letter of the law is not power to achieve that goal. That's why Yeshua brought mercy and truth and the Holy Spirit, and through it we have power to live according to word of God (the law). Like this comes true the goal of the law through the power of the Holy Spirit.
For us, who are believers, we have also that danger, that we can follow the law, but not Yeshua and we make from the law larger than its fulfilment, which is Yeshua the Messiah.
Yeshua is the grace
But let’s follow Yeshua in the Holy Spirit from the grace of God, so then comes true will of God, in which the Holy Spirit makes from the law of living (teaching of the word of God), so that as the disciple of Yeshua the Messiah we can grow in the way how the word of God teaches us through the Holy Spirit.
According to example where tablets of stone where at the bottom of the ark of covenant and mercy seat was above it.
That doesn't mean, that mercy destroy the law, but that only through the mercy the law can be living, otherwise letter kills. An so mercy don’t destroy the law, but brings us power to live accordance the law of God.
As we read, that at the bottom of the ark of covenant was the tables of law, but above of law was mercy seat. And because grace and truth came through Lord Yeshua the Messiah. And out of fullness of Yeshua we all received, and grace on top of grace, Joh 1:16. So Yeshua is our grace and He is the goal of the law and He is greater than the law. Yeshua is fulfilment of the law, amen. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 638
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:51 am Post subject: |
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| nakhash wrote: | | PetriFB wrote: | | Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator |
Christians. |
Please don't paint all of us w/the same brush.
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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nakhash
House Cat
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:53 am Post subject: |
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| PetriFB wrote: | | Messiah is the goal of the law, |
Oh darn. You're wrong again.
The meshiach was never mentioned in the torah. The meshiach was a folktale that was invented during the Babylonian exile. He wasn't supposed to be divine. He was supposed to be a descendant of David, and thus a King of Israel, who would unite Israel and drive out the Babylonians, and then the Assyrians, and then the Greeks, and then the Romans.
You lose. |
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nakhash
House Cat
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Evee wrote: | | nakhash wrote: | | PetriFB wrote: | | Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator |
Christians. |
Please don't paint all of us w/the same brush. |
By worshipping and serving a man (Yeshu) you worship and serve the creature more than the Creator.
You are all a bunch of heretics. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:34 am Post subject: |
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PetriFB
Awesome post!!
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:35 am Post subject: |
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nakhash,
What did Jesus bring with him when he was born into the world?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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PetriFB
Big Hamster
Joined: 29 Jan 2005
Posts: 95
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:19 am Post subject: |
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| May GBU all! |
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TeeJoe
Growing Guppy
Joined: 12 Oct 2005
Posts: 42
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:51 am Post subject: |
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| nakhash wrote: | | By worshipping and serving a man (Yeshu) you worship and serve the creature more than the Creator. |
Christians don't worship the "man". I think you know this though.
| nakhash wrote: | | You are all a bunch of heretics. |
Are you without blemish? Are you my righteous judge?
How can you see the speck within my eye through the plank in yours?
Does your statement make you a hypocrite? |
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nakhash
House Cat
Joined: 07 Dec 2005
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| TeeJoe wrote: | | nakhash wrote: | | By worshipping and serving a man (Yeshu) you worship and serve the creature more than the Creator. |
Christians don't worship the "man". I think you know this though. |
Then who do you folks make idols of, nailed to the cross? That surely doesn't look like a God up there.
| Quote: | | Are you without blemish? Are you my righteous judge? |
Yes. I am beyond good and evil. My life is without sin because in my life, there is no sin. In your life, there is sin, and you participate in it. There is heresy, and you participate in it. There is blasphemy, and you participate. You are a hypocrite.
| Quote: | | How can you see the speck within my eye through the plank in yours? |
How can I be a sinner when there is no such thing as sin?
| Quote: | | Does your statement make you a hypocrite? |
Nope. I'm just pointing out your own hypocrisy. |
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andy82
Tadpole
Joined: 13 Dec 2005
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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this seems to be turnig into a homophobic rant.
isn't one of the ten commandments: love thy nieghbour?
when the bible says that homosexualaity is a sin i believe that it is stating that sexual imorality is a sin and not jsust sighting the act of homosexuality as the great moral crime.
in biblical times hommosexuality was seen as a most intolarable crime but in modern times we know that it is not such an evil thing and it is viewed with a more tolerant light. there fore we should try to read the tru meanings of the scriptures and not just take them at face value |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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| andy82 wrote: | | isn't one of the ten commandments: love thy nieghbour? |
1. No Gods before the Lord
2. Do not take the Lord's name in vain.
3. Honor the Sabbath.
4. Honor your mother and father.
5. Do not commit unauthorized, hateful homicide.
6. Do not commit adultery (for women only).
7. Do not steal.
8. Do not bear false witness against your neighbor.
8. Do not covet your neighbor's wife.
10. Do not covet your neighbor's goods.
Jesus, however, says that the commandments all clarify into two:
Love your God before all others, and
Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
| andy82 wrote: | | when the bible says that homosexualaity is a sin i believe that it is stating that sexual imorality is a sin and not jsust sighting the act of homosexuality as the great moral crime. |
It said it was an abomination. If you participated in an abomination, you couldn't make sacrifices until you had attended a mikvah (ritual bath). Nothing more. The Old Testament has no concept of "sin."
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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what do you mean the old testament has no concept of sin, FFT?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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