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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
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what is the curse of the law?
who was cursed by the law?
what happened to the curse?
who are those one the left hand that go to the fiery pit with Satan and his demons?
remember that the prophecy refers to things that "have been", things that "are", and things that "will be".
Why do you assume that the vision is only future?
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:10 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | what is the curse of the law? |
Zechariah 5:3 Then said he unto me, This [is] the curse that goeth forth over the face of the whole earth: for every one that stealeth shall be cut off [as] on this side according to it; and every one that sweareth shall be cut off [as] on that side according to it.
Here is mentioned the curse, bringing up up 2 of the 10 commandments....."Thou shalt not steal"....."Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain".
Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
The curse is any sin, results in eternal death.
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who was cursed by the law? |
Anyone who broke any one of the commandments....
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
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what happened to the curse? |
It is still active....as long as sin is in the universe.
BUT, there is coming a day.....when sin and death will be no more, PRAISE GOD !
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who are those one the left hand that go to the fiery pit with Satan and his demons? |
Human beings who have joined satan in his rebellion against the goverment of God.
The goverment of God being based on ALL God's commandments & Laws...which humans has rejected or ignored.
| Quote: |
remember that the prophecy refers to things that "have been", things that "are", and things that "will be".
Why do you assume that the vision is only future?
hugs
lone |
Because the earth, is where HellFire will be.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
3:11 [Seeing] then [that] all these things shall be dissolved, what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in [all] holy conversation and godliness,
3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
In other words, this earth must be burned up, so God will replace the 'old' earth with the New Earth.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:21 am Post subject: |
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Silver,
You have no idea how much you bless me friend.
The curse is...because we do not listen to God, we do not hear God. Therefore we do not know God, and so we are dead to God.
Not because God killed us but because we chose not to listen therefore we killed ourselves.
Everyone is cursed by the law of NOT listening to God by listening to others instead.
What happened to the curse?
Christ came and opened our eyes and opened our ears so we could HEAR..and so we could LISTEN, so we could KNOW the true God, because when we KNOW God who gives us LIFE and gives Life to those who Hear Him, then we have received eternal life...we will never again walk in darkness and the fear of death.
The curse as you say is still active because many people are NOT Listening to God, they are listening to those who tell them what to believe rather than learning for themselves.
But Christ came and he destroyed that curse because if we truly listen we can hear and overcome the curse that is over all the earth.
He took the curse upon himself and destroyed it on the cross. The curse of unbelief...the curse of no faith, no truth...the curse of no love..No pity, no mercy, no hope..
All of these were destroyed.
We have belief, faith, truth, love, mercy, hope...
We need to put away the belief that we do not possess these gifts.
The gift of life that we give to one another when we give love which is the knowledge of God.
Earth is where hellfire IS...because we keep feeding it with our hatred and wrath and torment...
As long as we keep judging and accusing eachother..that fire will never be quenched...
Until the Love of God smothers it out.
And we do hope for a time in this earth when all hatred and wrath and judgmentalism and greed..all these things are utterly destroyed by it's own fire.
And it must first begin in the house of God...of which house ye are.
I know you know it....I know you can see it...
I have hope and faith that you will.
With all my heart
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Silver,
You have no idea how much you bless me friend.
The curse is...because we do not listen to God, we do not hear God. Therefore we do not know God, and so we are dead to God.
Not because God killed us but because we chose not to listen therefore we killed ourselves.
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Perfect choice of words.
It is we , ourselves, who determine where we spend eternity.
God has provided the tools (Grace, works, Faith, ect.)
BUT, it is HOW we use those 'tools' that matters in the end.
That is why God says: "work out your own salvation..."
Every indivuidual has a responsibility in their own salvation, a work to do....relying upon God for every tiny detail of strenght He provides us with.
We can echo Christ's words: "Of my own sellf, I can do nothing".
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:14 am Post subject: |
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Hi Silver,
the works we are supposed to do are not those same works that are written in the stone.
God gave Israel those "hard" laws because they were stiffnecked and proud. The laws are "hard" because they themselves were "hardened".
They thought in their heart...we are clean, we are righteous, we are pure...
So God gave them laws to prove to themselves how dirty they were. He made them wash all the time, he made them strict because they were strict.
He told them to kill because it was in their heart to kill.
Even though the law says thou shalt not kill.
They didn't listen. They heard what they wanted to hear.
They only wanted to give their slaves one day a week off from their works. Instead of setting them free from their works.
They figured one day is justifiable.
Their work was tedious. day and night offering offerings for the sins of the people..day after day judging one another...they chose which parts of the law to listen to and those they didn't want to hear they changed.
God made those laws for them because they had HARD as Stone hearts. So God gave them Stone to eat.
Their pride was in the way they appeared on the outside to the world. They didn't see the cesspool that was inside their own souls.
Did they heed in their hearts the words..do unto others as you would have done unto you?
If they had, then no one ever would have been stoned.
or judged unrighteously.
If they had kept the faith of Abraham then they would not have fallen into the hands of sin. The sin of self-righteousness.
Because without faith their is no righteousness in us..because righteousness is of God alone.
And when we walk in faith we walk in his righteousness and not our own.
LOOK:
Eze 33:13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
There are NO works which we can do that will make us righteous...save for the works of believing and having faith in God and teaching others the same.
To Love one another as he first loved us.
even while we were sinners.
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | There are NO works which we can do that will make us righteous...save for the works of believing and having faith in God and teaching others the same.
hugs
lone |
As the Bible says......we are saved to do the works of God......
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
This is to say that man's works are useless.
Man using his own power to do good, which he cannot do by himself.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
This Bible verse has a parallel verse....
Phill. 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
That is the difference between man's works, and God's works, in the same human body.
I find so many people confused on this point.
Sabbath-keeping CAN BE done in man's own strenght.....or, it can be done, in God's strenght.
That is why we must NOT Judge another person's actions...because we don't know if the person is keeping God's commandments in their own strenght, or God's.
BUT, if they refuse to keep the sabbath (or any other of God's commandments), we know for a certainty, that they know not God !
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: |
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I am not judging you at all silver for keeping any or all days of the week holy and unto the Lord.
You are judging yourself whether you are worthy or unworthy by whether you keep it or not.
When you decide in your own mind that you are unworthy if you don't keep it, then your decision reflects on other people as a judgement from what you believe.
So when we judge ourselves and find something "bad" or "sinful" in ourselves...We go looking for the same "sin" in others..so we ourselves can feel justified or "good" when we don't do what we ourselves consider sin.
So when we judge others we are in fact first judging our ownselves.
First we think...then we speak what we think within ourselves...and then we say so be it.
If I see NO SIN in me then that sinlessness reflects on all of those around me...because I no longer judge myself as worthy or unworthy...I leave that up to God.
So then I am free from judging you.
no judgement here silver..
I'm just explaining how I understand it.
You keep it as it feels right to you.
Hugs
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | I am not judging you at all silver for keeping any or all days of the week holy and unto the Lord. |
I know you weren't, Lone.
That comment was a thrown out in general, not aimed at any one person.
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You are judging yourself whether you are worthy or unworthy by whether you keep it or not. |
We are to to judge oursleves as to whether we are in the faith or not.....and, only by honest looking at the Bible does a person do that.
BUT....God does use people to warn other people of the dangerous course they are heading upon.
ALL God's prophets were accused of judging others.
And, that is why so many of God's prophets were killed.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject: |
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Whether we judge or judge not...the bottom line in which we both agree lies in faith.
And if we have faith in God...and we have the faith of Jesus..who believed God...as Abraham believed God...
then how can we go wrong?
It's when we put faith in anything other than God..
we fall down.
a lot of prophets were killed because they spoke out against the vain practices and faithless actions that they were doing.
They never spoke out against their faith in God.
unless I am mistaken..I can't think of any...
Hugs
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Whether we judge or judge not...the bottom line in which we both agree lies in faith.
And if we have faith in God...and we have the faith of Jesus..who believed God...as Abraham believed God...
then how can we go wrong?
It's when we put faith in anything other than God..
we fall down.
a lot of prophets were killed because they spoke out against the vain practices and faithless actions that they were doing.
They never spoke out against their faith in God.
unless I am mistaken..I can't think of any...
Hugs
Lone |
The religious leaders of Christ's day had no faith in God.
They were setting themselves up as their own god.....
being led by satan's hatred of God.
If they had had faith....they would not have crucified their God, in the form of Jesus Christ.
They would have known who He was, by the Scripture's description of Him and the works He came to do.
Because the OT Scripture fortold everything about Him.
And all they had to do was compare His life with the Scriptures to have known the truth.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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OrdinaryRadical
Tadpole
Joined: 26 Aug 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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I wonder if maybe they just hadn't looked at all the information or were maybe looking in the wrong places. We Christian's tend to "just look at scripture" and come to different views and assumptions about things. Everyone is "getting back to the bible" and coming up with different views.
Don't think I'm saying that we shouldn't do both of those things and our faith should be based only on scripture and we should discuss issues and push toward a greater truth and a greater faith.
But...
I wonder if that didn't happen to those who crucified Jesus. They thought He was something and would do something that He was not and was not going to do. He didn't follow their prescribed rules and laws the way they thought they should be followed. I wonder if maybe some of us would have crucified Jesus because he didn't live up to our predefined notion of who He is or what He should and shouldn't stand for?
In short, I don't know if it was a lack of faith in God that led to their crucifying Jesus, but the limitations of understanding in the human mind. Jesus pointed out often that the pharisees majored on the minors an awful lot. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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Hello OR,
I read something today that really floored me LOL..
All they had in Jesus's day was the OT. It was veiled/darkness/truths are hidden like in a dark cloud.
We are not supposed to judge those things of the past, until the light comes.
When Jesus came he was that light which shed understanding on the OT.
The problem the Pharisees and Saducees had was that they chose to live in the shadows rather than approach the light so they could judge righteously those things which were hidden in the past.
there is nothing hid that shall not become manifest.
Jesus manifested the OT as he was living it in the NT.
We look at the OT and we still look at it as if there is a veil over our hearts and minds. We don't see the thoughts and intentions of those people spoken about in the OT...yet the truth of their hearts and intentions are revealed in the NT through others.
The woman with an issue of blood for 12 years..I believe is Rachel.
The woman at the well..the samaritan..I believe is Hagar.
When we look at the old testament and we bring the light with us to walk there..then we can "see" what it is we missed while walking in the darkness of it.
I hope this makes sense...
Hugs
Lone
Like when it says Jesus looked behind him....he is looking into the past...
when Jesus says they have been heard...somewhere in the past they prayed..in spirit and in truth...
And he brings their prayers to pass as he walks in the light of the NT..
I almost jumped out of my seat..LOL..
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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| OrdinaryRadical wrote: | | I wonder if maybe some of us would have crucified Jesus because he didn't live up to our predefined notion of who He is or what He should and shouldn't stand for? |
Human nature has not changed.
Men/women hate to be shown their wrongs.
If Jesus were alive today, most in the present Christian world would string Him up in a moment.
Jesus would tell people they are wrong for attending church on Sunday, and the reasons it is wrong.
He would also tell them they eat the wrong foods, too.
| Quote: | | Jesus pointed out often that the pharisees majored on the minors an awful lot. |
We today, do the opposite, we ignore the minor things God says to do, which will result in disaster !
Just remember, that it was a minor thing what Adam & Eve did, in most people's opinions....that resulted in all the troubles we suffer today.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Silver,
I have a ?
If eating of the tree of knowledge was man's downfall, then why is it God say's that his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge?
Does this mean they didn't eat enough or they ate too much?
Isn't it rather that there was both good and evil knowledge, yet they chose the evil and spit out the good?
curious..
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2984
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Hi Silver,
I have a ?
If eating of the tree of knowledge was man's downfall, then why is it God say's that his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge?
Does this mean they didn't eat enough or they ate too much?
Isn't it rather that there was both good and evil knowledge, yet they chose the evil and spit out the good?
curious..
hugs
lone |
You know what I like about you, LT ?
You're a thinker....and, that is great !
And believe it or not, that is what God wants....people who thinks things out.
The Bible is written just that way, to get people to think thngs out.
Christ's parables were designed, to get people to think.
*********************************
Now, to answer your questions.
God NEVER wanted Adam & Eve to know evil.
BUT, God also gave to man, freedom of choice, which He will never violate.
Had they never eaten from the Tree of Good & Evil.....they would have never known what sin was, or suffered the vast consequences of sin, which of course was death of their son, for example.
Man had to be tested as to whom he would obey....God, the Creator, .....or satan, the adversary.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil exists today, symbolicly.
Man is tested, as to whom he will serve.
Satan made the claim in heaven that sinelss beings needed no law.
God allowed satan to put his theories to the test.
The first test subjects were Adam & Eve.
The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil were to do good ( God's commandments) versus satan's suggestions that God's Laws were binding upon sinless beings.
The consequences of their choice would determine whether they could maintain their accessibilty to the Tree of Life, or whether they would lose their access to the Tree of Life, which alone provided Adam & Eve with immortality.
The Tree of Life was designed to impress upon them that they were not totally independent beings, without a tie to their immortality.
This was satan's downfall, while in heaven.
He came to the point where his pride in himself, twisted his thinking to where he thought all his talents and powers, were his own, forgetting that God invested him with what he had.
In other words, he forgot (or, refused to acknowledge) that all he was, was given him by God, the Creator.
God created satan (then Lucifer), as the most powerful created being in all the universe.
He was created PERFECT !
BUT, pride was his downfall, as he refused to acknowledge God, as his source of perfection.
The power of choice is a VERY Powerful thing.
It can be used for good or bad.
We can say...Adam & Eve made a most stupid mistake.
BUT, we today, make the same mistakes they did.....by not trusting God in every single detail of daily living.
Why don't we learn from their mistakes ?
The Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil is ever before us daily.
Daily, we are put into the position of making a choice to obey satan .....or God, the Creator.
The Bible, is that Book....that instruction Book, where we can learn from others mistakes, and avoid them.
That is why God put so many biographies of different people, in the Bible.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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