General doctrine - leaving the Catholic Church

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:39 am Post subject:

Jmj

TeeJoe, thank you for your post! If your point was to remind me to be charitable – thank you, after reviewing the comment… I agree. Smile

TeeJoe · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:15 am Post subject:

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:22 am Post subject:

Jmj

Jack, I would love to discuss some of these issues with you (as I’ve said.) I would much prefer to go into the discussion without so much of an "agenda" though! Laughing

I mean, if you were genuinely curious about the “whys” and “hows” when it comes to Catholic doctrine – I think it would be a lot more constructive (not to mention enjoyable!) for the both of us. But, if your sole intention is to disprove everything the Church claims… it doesn’t sound like you’d be very open to the truth – even if it was obvious… and even if I personally presented the “truth” in a way that was very clear and sound (and I certainly doubt my strength in this area! Wink

)

In any case… my answer to your challenge is: “Of course!” Very Happy

I will be more than happy to debate some of the issues you mentioned… and I too will use the Scriptures to refute your misunderstandings. Wink

Yes, the Catechism may be useful in some cases as well. (Incidentally… have you ever read it before? I think it would be worth your while! Smile

) I’ll probably also use writings from the early Church - a great deal of wealth can be found there!

Honestly, I don’t think religion should be about a contest – which is sort of what we’re making it. I imagine you probably feel the same. But, if we share with each other some good insight, present it in a respectful manner, and stay open-minded throughout – I don’t see why we can’t make this an opportunity to grow closer to God! Right? Wink

So, go ahead and pick a particular issue if you'd like! I'll respond with the Catholic understanding, and then you can respond with yours! (If you think that's fair Smile

) We've already covered (briefly) the sacraments of Reconciliation and Baptism, but we could devote some more time to them if you’d like. I’m pretty much open to anything my friend!

Thank you for your prayers Jack – I hope you know that you are in mine (daily.) Also, out of curiosity – do you know what the origin of the word “Christmas” is??? Wink

I wish the same for you… that you have a merry Christmas Jack. Smile

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

golfjack · Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:27 pm Post subject: reply

Hi Jason, before we start, I would suggest that you think over your approval of freemasons in the Catholic Church. I discovered on the internet that a Catholic that joins this secret organization will be ex-communicated. This was established by the Pope in 1982, and was mentioned on EWTN. I am not trying to tell you what to do, but thought you should know.

Later, I think we should discuss what is said in Matt.16:18-19, as I think this is the basis of Catholic doctrine.

May God bless you my friend, Jack

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

Jason my friend, it is not I who does not understand the teachings of the Catholic Church, it is you. You may attend church every single Sunday, you may go to confession, you can read your Catechism, do all those things but you don't really understand your church, because if you did, you would go out of your way to avoid it. You have never checked out the history of your Catholic or univeral church, your church does have some history. It claims to go back to Peter who they claim is the first Pope. That is very questionable. The church only goes back to the fourth century. Many of the rituals and teachings of your church are Pagan, whether you like it or not, I know you will deny these things, but they are true.

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:20 am Post subject:

Jmj

TeeJoe… Greetings! Thank you for your post, your honest questions, and your kind words! Smile

I promise I will try to give you a better response this time… or at least, some more detailed explanations. Wink

(But, I don’t want to get too far off track by continuously examining and re-examining how I could have phrased things differently – if you know what I mean. Wink

)

When Catholics say that the Church was “founded” by Christ, they mean it in a very literal way. As you may be aware – the Church claims to have been around (literally) since the time of the Apostles. So, historically speaking… the Catholic Church claims to be THE CHURCH that has existed since the Apostolic age – when Christ literally established and founded His Church. Smile

When Protestants make this claim – they usually mean it in a figurative way. Jesus “founded” their church – because the Christians who “literally” founded their church were completely dedicated to Him.

The point I was trying to make when I said that some Christians DO claim that Christ founded their church, even though their church was founded very recently – was to illustrate the idea of the origin of the Church. Historically speaking… if your “church” was founded in 1950, complete with a new set of doctrines and Biblical interpretations (that don’t quite “fit” with any other “established” Protestant church) – to claim that this church was founded by Jesus Christ is inaccurate. It MAY however have been founded by good and honest people – who sincerely wanted to dedicate their lives and their new ministry to Jesus Christ - based on their honest interpretations of the Holy Bible. But, the simple fact is… that Jesus established His Church almost two thousand years ago… not fifty-five years ago. Do you see the point?

I understand that it may seem silly to you… but the distinction is important. Consider this… Lutherans claim to be able to trace their history to Jesus Christ THROUGH the Catholic Church, but for the most part… they generally acknowledge that their “church” movement was founded by Martin Luther (based upon his teachings, his writings, and his reformed doctrine.) Anglicans (or Episcopalians) do the same thing – tracing their history through the Catholic Church (arguably with more validity to this claim.) There are others, but the point is this… if anyone wishes to claim and demonstrate a legitimate historical link between their church and the same Church that Jesus literally established, they must do so within the Catholic Church. Why? Because there is simply no alternative! To trace a church's history back to Jesus and the Apostles, one cannot avoid the Catholic Church... unless one appeals to a “hidden” or “underground” church that existed in secrecy and persecution (which is why there is no evidence of its existence) since the Apostolic age (which some do claim.)

I don’t really want to harp on these points too much longer though, because I think it can be offensive to people… and I have no wish to offend people unnecessarily. That was a large point of my original post (that you quoted) actually!

In any case, I truly appreciate your time and attention. I may very well have not given you a very good explanation of what I meant here… but, I hope that I at least made it a little more understandable! Smile

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 716 Location: WV

Here's some objective history on who founded what religions.
If you are a member of the Jewish faith, your religion was founded by Abraham about 4,000 years ago. If you are Hindu, your religion developed in India around 1,500B.C. If you are Roman Catholic, Jesus Christ began your religion in the year 33. If you are Islamic, Mohammed started your religion in 600 A.D. If you are Eastern Orthodox, your sect separated from Roman Catholicism around the year 1000. If you are a Lutheran, your relighion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk in the Catholic Church in 1517. If you belong to the Church of England (Anglican), your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry. If you are a Presbyerian, your religion was founded when John Knox brought the teachings of John Calvin to Scotland in the year 1560. If you are Unitarian, your religious group developed in Europe in the 1500s. If you are a Congregationalist, your religion branched off from Puritanism in the early 1600s in England. If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1607. If you are Methodist, your religion was founded by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744. If you are an Episcopalian, your religion was brought over from England to the American colonies and formed a separate religion founded by Samuel Seabury in 1789. If you are a Mormon (Latter-Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your church in Palmyra, N.Y. in 1830. If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865. If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year your religion was founded by Mary Baker Eddy. If you are a Jehovah's Witness, your religion was founded by Charles Taze Russell in Pennsylvania in the 1870s. If you are Pentecostal, your religion was started in the United States in 1901. If you are an agnostic, you profess an uncertainty or a skepticism about the excistence of God or a Higher Being. If you are an atheist, you do not believe in the existence of God or any other higher power.
I saved this from an Ann Landers column that ran many years ago.

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:08 am Post subject:

Jmj

Jack, hello again! Smile

I think the establishment (by Christ) of the office of St. Peter is a wonderful place to start! And you are correct in pointing to those passages as being important in illustrating this point – but there are many others! Wink

I’m looking forward to digging into this one with you my friend! Smile

Just to make a quick point on this subject though… Matthew 16:18 is not the basis of Catholic doctrine by any means, though it does lend support to the teaching regarding the primacy of St. Peter. Wink

To address your concerns about Freemasonry… I am aware of some the formal proclamations forbidding Catholics from becoming Masons (the first was in 1738, though a more definitive discipline may very well have been pronounced in more recent times – like 1982. Wink

) I never said anything different, nor did I lend my support to this fraternal organization. What I meant was that I simply acknowledge the existence of Freemasonry! Wink

(As I acknowledged the existence of Opus Dei… if you take another look at that post, I think you’ll find I was fairly ambiguous when it came to my opinions on these! Wink

) Like I said - there is a Masonic lodge not far from my home… and not only do I know many practicing Masons – I would not hesitate for a moment to call some of them my dear friends! Smile

The truth remains (however) that the Masonic system and the Catholic Church “are not reconcilable, and no Catholic may join the Lodge without thereby renouncing his Church. But there is no reason why Catholics and Masons, making allowance for each other’s persuasions, should not be personally friendly in this country, observing always true charity towards individuals.”

When it comes to Masons, in every single case, I pray for their conversion and for them to come home to His Church (more so for my friends I suppose) – but this sincere prayer and hope for Masons to know Jesus Christ intimately and to be able to participate in worshipping Him and receiving His grace through this relationship and His sacraments does not move me to exclude them from my life. Additionally… I know several Masons who are committed and faithful Christians, this is not at all impossible! I personally believe that this is only accomplished through ignorance of anti-Christian beliefs within Freemasonry… that the individuals simply are not aware of their existence. But, I am no expert in Freemasonry! Lol It is enough for me (right now) to obey the teachings of His Church – which clearly teaches that no Catholic should join the Masonic Lodge! Smile

Thank you for your concern in this situation Jack – but I can assure you, I have no intention of ever becoming a Mason. Smile

May the Lord be with you!

Jason

TeeJoe · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:30 am Post subject:

Hi Jason,

Yes you cleared up the questions that I had. Truly I guess we will have to agree to disagree though. I think that the Catholic Churches claim to be around from the time of Christ to be no different than those of the link I provided. Like you said there were churches that did not answer Constantine's call for a council. These churches were persecuted and the history is hard to find on them. But we both know that there were churches that didn't join. Most of these churches were later called Ana-Baptist, because of the practice of re-baptizing those that were baptized as infants. The link I provided in the previous post details their history on what Carroll could find on them.
I also agree that I don't want to harp on these points further. All of this really does nothing to further spread the message we are told to give. I hope the next time we discuss the Bible it will be to build upon each others faith.

God Bless you
TeeJoe

TeeJoe · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 5:37 am Post subject:

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:22 am Post subject:

Jmj

Bridget, I am not going to repeat what I said – but I will offer an apology if you were offended by how I worded my assertion that you do not know much about Catholicism. Truly, I did not mean to imply you are personally ignorant or dull-witted Bridget… I really and truly hope you will forgive me if you thought this was my intent.

In other news! Smile

I would like to tell you a story… Wink

A long time ago there was a man who became a Christian. (Praise the Lord! Smile

) This man heard the Gospel from another man – who we know as the Apostle John (“this was a man who had heard the Good News from the lips of the Apostle John himself…”)… and John learned of the Gospel by witnessing the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ Himself. This man became the second Bishop of the ancient city of Antioch – “the city where Jesus’ followers were first called Christians (Acts 11:26) and a major center of Christianity.” This man’s name was St. Ignatius.

Around the year A.D. 110 (or C.E. if you prefer) – “Roman soldiers were leading Ignatius to Rome where lions awaited him. You may recall how early Christians were persecuted by all – including the Roman Empire. Along the way, he wrote several letters to churches along his route, encouraging them in the faith.” Many of these writings are available for your review today – and I highly encourage anyone to review them! But… let me give you a small taste. Wink

Evee · Moderator Joined: 13 Sep 2005 Posts: 600

JasonB82ABN · Posted: Wed Dec 21, 2005 7:00 am Post subject:

Jmj

Cballard, I agree with TeeJoe’s review of that post. Though I understand and agree with what you’re trying to show, I can definitely see how the wording may come across as offensive or arogant. Please understand that I’m not saying that I think you were being careless, but that I can simply relate to TeeJoe’s impression of the message. Do you know what I mean? Smile

Thank you for the post though! God Bless you!

TeeJoe, I’m going to keep this short (or try to anyway. Wink

) The link you provided has very little scholarly merit. If you want to build support for a point (any point, in any discussion) you should expect your sources to come under scrutiny. In all honesty, that particular source is garbage. If you want to know more about the true history of the Baptist movement – read the book “We Baptists” from the BWA. It is a very scholarly (and user-friendly) work – assembled by some of the best Baptist theologians, historians, and scholars in the world! Very respectable. The information you find by way of the link you provided is not – not by a long shot. I don’t think I need to comment about any of the content, I believe any objective reader would see the intent of the source right away.

I’m not saying that there is not good information on the internet, or that internet based sourcing is bad form. But, I think you should exercise caution all the same. Smile

The funny thing is (I think)…you seemed to imply that you aren’t sure about the truth of some of the claims made by that website. (And I personally thought it was very admirable of you to offer an alternative source – sort of playing the Devil’s advocate in a way I suppose! Wink

) If my impression was close to the mark… why do you discredit yourself by pointing people to a VERY questionable source of information (or MIS-information)? You seem like a very reasonable and sincere person – and I really am enjoying reading what you have to say! But, please consider all this for a moment… before you make another reference to a source like that.

Sincerely, I have probably done the same thing before! But, when people start asking for sources for what you say… you don’t want to refer them to Calvin and Hobbs… you know what I’m saying? Wink

Thank you for your time my friend.

May the Lord be with you!

Jason