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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1127
Location: arizona
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 Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: reply |
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Good Morning all, I thought that I would express my feelings about this thread. It is a very good discussion. You know, that there is not going to be a Catholic, lutheran, baptist, pentacostal, and others that have separate camps so to speak. It will be universal, and all who have put their faith (adhere, complete trust, and holdfast to their beliefs) that Jesus Christ came to earth as a man that had no sin, and paid our sin debt on that cross at Calvary, and forgives us all our sins, and when He said it is finished, then we accept and confess this with our mouths, then we are saved. Notice the word all sins. This means past, present, and future sins. The blood of Jesus does it all because when Jesus said that it is finished (past tense, forgiveness). If we do sin and use 1 John:9, that sin that was in the present is forgiven. You see, forgiveness is for future sins too, because it has already been shed for us. What an amazing God, worthy to be praised.
Somebody mentioned Unitarian/universelism church. Does everybody go to heaven? Of course not. Is this church an occult? You bet. Is the Morman Church a cult because they that Lucifer is also the son Of god, that they become Gods when they get to heaven? You bet. are Jehovahs Witness a cult? You bet. They don't believe in the diety of Christ. They believe that Jesus came from Michael the Arch Angel. There are many other cults. Now, there is a possibility that some of these people will be saved as long as they are living if they Accept Christ, but one one dies, that's it because their spirit and souls will go to hell. The Bible says to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord if one is saved. Are to tell them that they are headed for hell? I believe it depends on What God tells one to do, and if He says yes, then it is our duty and responsibility to obey God.
Jason, I want to respond to your remarks about Catholic thelogy. I will direct and to the point. I will continue this discussion before I lose it.
Cont. Golfjack |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1127
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 10:41 am Post subject: reply |
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Hi Jason, like I said before, I don't believe in some of the Catholic Doctrine. I will ask you questions and you tell me if they are Biblical, and no spin please.
Is there a purgatory? Is there Mortal sin? Do you believe if you don't go to Mass on Sunday are you in a state of Mortal Sin? Do you believe that Mary had no sin? Do you believe in the rosary? Do you pray to Mary or saints? Do you pray for the dead? Are there sacraments other than water Baptism and Communion? do you believe in the transubstaniation of the host? Do you believe that Mary asccended into heaven? Do you believe in Lent? Do you believe that the other seven books in the Catholic Bible are inspired by the Holy Spirit. There are probably many other things, but just 2 more. Do you believe in Opus Dei, and free masons?
Now don't get me wrong. I do believe that you are saved, but you pay too much attention to religious, legalistic, and ritualistic things. I gurantee if you ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit, your life will dramatically change, and believe there are some Catholics that Are Charismatic like me. I love you brother and pray for you.
May God bless, Jack |
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Bridget
Rattlesnake
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 443
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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Who has sinned, all of us at one time or another, but God cared enough to send Yeshua to be our salvation. In believing in Him as Messiah, our sins are forgiven. Noone has the right except God Himself to judge anyone else. Not I, not you and certainly not the Catholic church. As I said, I have no malice for the Catholic Church, I just can't accept that so many people go to that place and believe they are working for God and Yeshua, but are they really. There is such a big rift between the church and what the Bible says.
Evee, it is hard to understand the Bible sometimes, but I think the problem may be in the cultural differences between the lst Century and today. First I believe from what I have read that Yeshua spoke Aramaic, and the the Bible was originally written in that language and translated into Greek for the Greek speaking believers. Then they tried to translate it back to Aramaic. Today its been translated over and over again over the years. There is an Aramaic Bible in existance today in The Catholic church of the East in Syria. This has been translated into English and is on line. As you go to different sites, it's amazing how the translations differ.
There is also the Nag Hamadi library. Some of these books have been altered by Muslims for some reason or other, but there is one book I love and that's the Gospel of Thomas, which is simply the sayings of Yeshua the author wrote down and are recorded in this Gospel. You get an idea of how Yeshua actually spoke and many of the sayings go along with what is in the Bible.
The one thing is that there are writings in existance that prove beyond any doubt that Yeshua lived, that He was hated by some and loved by some, and crucified. |
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cballard
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 16 Jun 2005
Posts: 716
Location: WV
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:02 am Post subject: |
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Let's just stick to one idea here instead of going off into the various debates of which you Protestants seem to have no agreement on among yourselves. Catholics aren't the only ones who believe in the Trinity or that Baptism is one of the requirement to be saved. In my opinion, you all sound like the Church of Babel. In your "do-it-yourself" beliefs and practices, you must think Gad had no clear plan or structure in mind for applying the merits of Christ's sacrifice and gatering all men and women to Himself.
Jesus started a Church which at Pentcost. That Church still exists. It is objective reality in that we can talk about it in the third person as an "it". What is your Church? Is it the Church Jesus started? That's an important question for all of us to ask.
At the same time, we all agree that the Bible is the inspired Word of God that objectively records God's plan for mankind. Catholics just see the Church as the deposit of faith which is revealed to us in the Bible and as such, it is not negotiable. I don't understand how you can each believe you are your own Pope |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1127
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:52 am Post subject: reply |
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My friend, Jesus is the Head of my Church, not a Pope. He has no moral authority over me whatsoever.
May God bless, golfjack |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Bridget wrote: | | The one thing is that there are writings in existance that prove beyond any doubt that Yeshua lived |
I can safely say that this is completely false.
I doubt that Yeshua lived, and I have read the writings.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:29 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Lone, thank you for this reply – it was very insightful.  Also, I thank you for your charity my brother.
In response, I feel that I can only say… that I agree with probably 99% or more of the points you were trying to illustrate (as I understood them  ) But, I feel that making an additional point would be helpful as well, if you don’t mind.
Yes, I think we can all call ourselves “servants” of God… as He does! But, I think we both know that certain people are blessed with different “gifts” and some people were meant to lead a particular life. This is wonderfully demonstrated in the individuals He chose to bless with His authority to forgive sin – because they were specifically selected by Him out of the many of His followers He could have chosen. There is no parallel in the Holy Bible that matches the strength of those passages and those words when it comes to Jesus discussing how the forgiveness we can receive (by His sacrifice alone) is to be applied…
| Quote: | "He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained."
John 20:21-23 Douay-Rheims Bible |
In any case… I agree - we are all on “a path.” Some people choose walk this path, some run… some may skip or hop the whole way! (I’m speaking of diversity in expression here ) And yes, hopefully… all our paths will lead to God! Thank you for your words my friend!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:30 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Hello Lone! Sorry... I meant "sister."
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine
Last edited by JasonB82ABN on Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:52 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Jason you wrote:
| Quote: | | This is wonderfully demonstrated in the individuals He chose to bless with His authority to forgive sin – because they were specifically selected by Him out of the many of His followers He could have chosen |
We are discussing those who have been given authority over certain gifts?
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
what is this reconciliation?
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
2Cr 5:18 And all things [are] of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath [b]given to us the ministry of reconciliation[/b];
2Cr 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed [b]unto us the word of reconciliation. [/b]
2Cr 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech [you] by us: we pray [you] in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
and these gifts are only for some?
1 Corinthians - Chapter 1
1Cr 1:1 Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
1Cr 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Cr 1:3 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:4 I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
1Cr 1:5 That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and [in] all knowledge;
1Cr 1:6 Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
1Cr 1:7 So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:9 God [is] faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
and here again:
Rom 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think [of himself] more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Rom 12:4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
Rom 12:9 [Let] love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.
Rom 12:10 [Be] kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love; in honour preferring one another;
Rom 12:11 Not slothful in business; fervent in spirit; serving the Lord;
Rom 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;
Rom 12:13 Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
Rom 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.
Rom 12:15 Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
Rom 12:16 [Be] of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.
Rom 12:17 Recompense to no man evil for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men.
Rom 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.
Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
Rom 12:20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
Rom 12:21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
so this I see:
Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith;
That gifts are distributed according to grace and proportion of faith.
Now that proportion of faith is determined, how?
Who decides who has what amount of faith?
Can one person tell how much faith another person posesses?
and Jason you wrote:
| Quote: | | But, I think we both know that certain people are blessed with different “gifts” and some people were meant to lead a particular life. |
Let's look at that particular life...
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Cr 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
2Cr 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
Who are these certain people which are blessed with gifts from God, that are to live a particular life to him?
You know that God warns that those who would be first in the kingdom, become last. And those whom are last will be first?
Those that rule will become servants, and those whom are servants will become rulers. In His kingdom.
Again, I am not saying that there are those who do not need to follow other men's examples. I am saying that there are those who are given faith to follow the Lord and He alone shall lead them.
There are many people in the world who have GREAT FAITH in our Lord.
And we should learn by watching them as examples.
But to bow down and worship, even the angels say, "See thou do it not".
I will listen, I will try the spirits of those who say they are God's. And I will learn from those who guide with sincerity and truth.
But I will not follow a crowd because the crowd moves here or there.
I will keep my feet on solid ground. Which is the rock of my Faith and the sure foundation, My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Thankyou for hearing my words Jason,
your sister in Christ.
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:00 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Yvette, thank you for your reply! You seem like not only a very honest… but a very open person. I really enjoy reading the things you have to share! Thank you.
In response… I’ll try to address some of the things you brought up, in relative order.
It’s cool that you see the reality of the different senses of Scripture! I read an article a while ago… I think it was called “One Text, Four Senses” that went into a little more detail about these – and how understanding these "senses" (they are... literal, spiritual - allegorical, moral, and anagogical I think)… helps us to understand and learn more from the Scriptures. And I know what you mean about getting excited about a good Bible study – especially when it’s one that takes another POV when examining the Scriptures. It can be a lot of fun… and you definitely feel like you’re growing closer to Him as you learn more! What a blessing!
| Quote: | | “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” – sometimes rendered this way. |
This wonderful quote is normally ascribed to St. Francis of Assisi – who is SO INCREDIBLE! I can’t say that enough! Learning about him and the life he led is definitely worth any Christian’s time and effort. Another one I really enjoy is: | Quote: | | “While you are proclaiming peace with your lips, be careful to have it even more fully in your heart.” |
I also love the “Prayer of St. Francis” (also attributed to him) – especially when the prayer is sung. It’s so beautiful and inspirational!
| Quote: | Lord, make me a channel of Your peace,
Where there is hatred, let me bring Your love,
Where there is injury - Your pardon, Lord,
And where there's doubt, true faith, in You.
Make me a channel of Your peace,
Where there's despair in life let me bring hope,
Where there is darkness, only light,
And where there's sadness ever joy.
O Master grant that I may never seek
So much to be consoled as to console
To be understood, as to understand,
To be loved, as to love with all my soul.
Make me a channel of your peace,
It is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
In giving of ourselves that we receive,
And in dying, that we're born to eternal life. |
I sure wish you could actually HEAR it though - It's so beautiful! I know that was a little off topic – but I really dig inspirational stuff. Hope you don’t mind me sharing!
I liked how you described your “confession time” during your Protestant service – it sounds very nice… and moving as well. I think that some Protestants (not all by any means) get so caught up in the notion that they are “saved” that they forget (or think they don’t have any use for) the need to repent - Catholics are not immune either, not by a long shot! I myself am guilty of this sin… ‘Pride’ catches me far too often. I remember reading an article (I read a lot! ) discussing how Pride was the first and worst of all sins – and it discussed the fall of the angel Lucifer because (chiefly) of this sin. Very enlightening. If it’s the devil’s “favorite” sin – no wonder it’s such a common one for humans to fall into! Satan knows it well. Kind of scary in a way isn't it? And it can be very humbling (I think) when we realize we've been guilty of it! I think he tries to trick us with Pride... so we feel invincible... like: "I don't need to repent anymore! I've done enough of that!" even though we continue to sin.
Your point about the Apostles being able to forgive sins… but that they might not have done it for everyone is very good. And I do see what you mean! The same thing happens today. Just because a Christian doesn’t have access to a Priest doesn’t mean that they can’t repent. As we’ve both said… God knows our hearts. So a Catholic, who comes to terms with their sins and has contrition… but no practical ability to do as Jesus instructed – that individual’s forgiveness is applied to them by their desire (provided they are not intentionally avoiding the sacrament.) This would make sense even… in a situation like when a Catholic commits a sin, has remorse and the desire to confess, but gets hit by a bus before they have a chance! Or a Catholic in a country where there aren’t many Christians, or where we are persecuted… and finding a priest or making a journey to one can be difficult, dangerous, or just impractical. The same thing goes for the early Christians if they couldn’t seek out one of the Apostles or one of the Bishops they had ordained for this ministry (like… Timothy for example.) I think it’s pretty simple… but I understand why a non-Catholic might be confused! But, to try to make it simple... no - Catholics do not believe that you HAVE to confess everything to a Priest in order to be forgiven for our sins… it depends on the circumstances and the nature of the sin itself! And like I said… culpability for avoiding this sacrament is probably different for Protestants – as they have been denied a proper understanding of the nature of the sacrament.
I hope that made sense! I think I might have confused MYSELF just trying to explain it! 
In any case… thank you for your kind words.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 10:49 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Jack, thank you for continuing with our discussion my friend! I’m very glad to see and read your posts.
In your first post, you spoke about something I wanted to touch on – about how Jesus paid for our sins… past, present, and future. I completely agree (as does the Church by the way. ) However, I think you might be confused about how Catholics feel about this… let me try to explain. If you were to say to a Catholic, “I don’t need to go to confession… Jesus already paid for my sins!” (or something like that) – the Catholic might very well react unfavorably. You see, when we hear this… it sounds like you are saying that you can sin all you want and it doesn’t matter! “I can go out and do whatever I want, because the penalty for that sin is already credited to me!” If someone were to think like this… it would actually ADD malice to the sin they were about to commit! It’s like… “I am so mad at this guy, I’m going to kill him! I know I shouldn’t… it’s HORRIBLE sin… but since Jesus already paid for it, who cares! What’ve I got to lose!?” I don’t think this is what you believe, but it might seem that way based on what you’re saying. And if you framed your beliefs like this in a conversation with another Catholic – they might very well disagree with it, because they don’t understand your real meaning… and then YOU might think that THEY don’t understand how Jesus sacrifice is eternal and timeless! In any case… I don’t see a conflict of belief here Jack! So, that’s good news right!?
As far as what you said about some of these different Christian “movements”… I am not going to comment at great length. I have my reasons – charity being a large one. But, I’ll ask you this… how far from the truth does a person (or denomination) have to be… before they are no longer considered a Christian and are considered a member of a cult by you? I agree with you that it’s very sad and it demonstrates the work of the devil that so many people have rejected doctrines essential to Christianity. But, seriously… who decides which ones are “disposable” and which ones are not? You? Some of the movements you mentioned have very similar beliefs concerning the Sacred Scriptures as you do… and they have come away with different doctrines… all the while, they are sincere and convicted in their faith. Interesting how that works isn’t it?
The last part of your 1st post – I have strong feelings about Jack. You might do well to read some G.K. Chesterson! (read his book, Orthodoxy, and you’ll understand why I say that! ) In any case, what you’re saying… sounds to me very much like you are prepared to be the judge of humanity Jack. As I’ve mentioned (several times) recently, only God knows our hearts – this applies to non-Christians just as much as it does to us. You might find it interesting to know that the Catholic Church has NEVER, and I mean not ONCE in her almost 2,000 year history declared ANYONE to be in hell. You thought otherwise didn’t you!? I know I did! It just goes to show you… you can be Catholic your whole life… and think you know a whole lot more than you really do!
So, you want to tell people they are going to hell? Maybe this isn’t what you meant to imply… but I got the impression that you were saying that “If God tells me to do it… I’m in the clear.” As far as telling people they’re going to hell goes though Jack… if you want to, go right ahead! Again… you have that choice! But I’d like to caution you… when saying this; consider NOT saying you are speaking for God… unless He gave you insight into what is written on an individual’s heart. Try using words like… “It is MY opinion that…” or “I PERSONALLY believe that you are…” See what I’m saying?
I’ll respond to your second post in a while… my wife and I are about to have lunch! And she’s like… “What’s taking you so long on the computer Jason!?” I love that woman!
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
_________________
"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine
Last edited by JasonB82ABN on Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Jmj
Jack – okay… part 2! Lol
| Quote: | | Hi Jason, like I said before, I don't believe in some of the Catholic Doctrine. I will ask you questions and you tell me if they are Biblical, and no spin please. |
I honestly don’t know what you mean by “spin” – truthfully. But I am sorry if I have given you reason to doubt my sincerity or integrity.
| Quote: | | Is there a purgatory? Is there Mortal sin? Do you believe if you don't go to Mass on Sunday are you in a state of Mortal Sin? Do you believe that Mary had no sin? Do you believe in the rosary? Do you pray to Mary or saints? Do you pray for the dead? Are there sacraments other than water Baptism and Communion? do you believe in the transubstaniation of the host? Do you believe that Mary asccended into heaven? Do you believe in Lent? Do you believe that the other seven books in the Catholic Bible are inspired by the Holy Spirit. There are probably many other things, but just 2 more. Do you believe in Opus Dei, and free masons? |
I know we’ve had a similar discussion before haven’t we!? That’s quite a list Jack! Do you REALLY want answers??? If so, I humbly ask for you to please give me a fair opportunity to discuss them with the respect and time they deserve. If you don’t REALLY want REAL answers – I’ll try to make it simple for you!
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes (the rosary exists, you can buy them at non-Catholic stores even!), sometimes – though rarely, yes I have (I’ve had a lot of people to pray for recently), yes there are, I think “transubstantiation” is a wonderful explanation for something very real… so yes!, yes, yes, yes… yes – I’ve seen some Opus Dei members interviewed on TV before (if it’s on TV it’s got to be real right!?) – so yes - I believe in Opus Dei, and finally… Yes, I believe in ‘free masons’ – there is a local lodge near my home! And I’ve watched them walk in parades before! And to try to answer some of the “many other things” – I’ll try to answer them for you really quick… No – I don’t believe in ‘Santa Claus,’ No – I don’t believe in the Easter Bunny, No - I don’t believe in the tooth fairy, and Yes – I think smoking is bad for you!
I’m joking a bit here… because I think some of your questions were sort of funny in a way! But, like I said… if you really want to know more about the “list” of things you asked me about personally, I would appreciate it if you presented them in a way I actually COULD respond to! Know what I mean?
| Quote: | | Now don't get me wrong. I do believe that you are saved, but you pay too much attention to religious, legalistic, and ritualistic things. I gurantee if you ask God to fill you with the Holy Spirit, your life will dramatically change, and believe there are some Catholics that Are Charismatic like me. I love you brother and pray for you. |
I don’t WANT to get you wrong Jack! But, it’s hard sometimes! I'm not always very good about reading into things... and figuring out what people MEAN - in spite of what they SAY! Yes, I pay attention to “religious things” – I care deeply for the truths of Christianity, what is this fear you have of “religious things” about? Look up “religion” in the dictionary – one definition says “a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith” – is this offensive to you!? I think the legalistic charge is ironic… because I view YOUR interpretation of salvation as purely legalistic! It’s strange that we both see it in each other, but not ourselves! As far as the “ritualistic things” goes… YES! Absolutely! Christianity has always been practiced and expressed with “rituals” – what’s wrong with that!? You should have more care for ritual and liturgy my friend – they are very “Biblical.”
Yes, I know some charismatic Catholics that speak in toungues like you wouldn’t believe! (If that’s what you’re referring to.)
Thank you for your prayers Jack – truly, I appreciate it very much. Your charity pierces my heart! I have little doubt that you are a very passionate Christian! I will continue to pray for you to be reconciled to His Church.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:15 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
Bridget, I do not believe you understand very much about what the Catholic Church teaches – so your comment about there being such a great “rift” between the Church and the Bible is based simply on misunderstanding (at best,) or lack of charity and carelessness (at worst.) I will try not to be offended, because I don't think it was your intention to BE offensive. But... I know it is possible for you to stand up for your beliefs without compromising them - and without being so condescending towards others. I will honestly try to keep this thought with me while I post here... to avoid hurting people unnecessarily - I pray you can do the same!
Additionally, I’m having a hard time relating to your comments… or even really understanding your points. I’m sorry, but you just seem very confusing to me!   If you have questions, I can try to respond as best as I can? I don’t know what else to say besides that.
Also, I don’t think you should be concerned with using the “anglicized” name for Jesus… that being… Jesus! I don’t think He views it as sinful – but if you feel that convicted about it… who am I to say!?  I will say this though, if you are using “Yeshua” only to set yourself apart – I think you should re-consider your motives. When speaking or communicating with other people – in order to best get your point across, it’s FAR more constructive to use language they can relate to and understand… if you purposefully chose NOT too… then don’t be surprised when people have a hard time understanding and/or relating to you! Much less actually WANTING to!
I knew a Rabbi in the Army (he was a chaplain – a Captain) and I enjoyed some good conversations with him (our meeting each other was quite a story itself! lol) In any case… although he was obviously not a Christian, he had no problem using the words “New Testament” when he was speaking with me about religion – I thought this was VERY respectful and charitable for him to do this (though I didn’t even really notice at the time.) But, I learned a lesson from him about how to relate to people - and his respectfulness and consideration meant a lot to me. Maybe this brief recollection of my story will mean something to you too!
In any case – I don’t know what else to say! But, I will pray for you to be blessed with the desire to truly learn more about Christianity.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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JasonB82ABN
Little Hamster
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 79
Location: Cedar Falls, IA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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Jmj
| Quote: | | My friend, Jesus is the Head of my Church, not a Pope. He has no moral authority over me whatsoever. |
Jack, you did not even come close to understanding cballard’s point. He wasn’t even referring to the Pope. And to correct your obvious misunderstanding – Jesus is the head (and the founder) of the Catholic Church – not the Pope, not any Pope! Who is the Pope for us? He is the successor of St. Peter who we believe was the first “Pope.” What does that mean for us all? A lot! If you want to know more… just ask!
Cballard – I thought you had a pretty good point in your post. I’ve often thought of asking the question “Who founded your church?” before. But, it seems a little cruel in a way. I mean… obviously no Protestant church can claim to have been around (physically or doctrinally) since the time of the Apostles… so it seems (to me) like a question that doesn’t really need to be asked. But, I do wonder from time to time! Especially when I run across people who seem so convinced that they know the entire history of the Church and salvation history!
FFT, I completely agree with your first point.
| Quote: | | “I can safely say that this is completely false.” |
Because the comment was making something subjective sound objective. For example, I could (personally) have serious doubts that George Washington was the first president of the United States of America… or that such a man ever existed! I could be firm in my convictions… and they would be completely legitimate! (Although misguided) Because it being PROVEN to me depends on my BELIEF! However… I personally think you’re being overly critical by choosing to pick on this ONE comment.
I am more concerned with your second point. What “writings” have you read? There is great truth in Christ my friend! You can still be an intellectual and believe in God – maybe it would help if you considered for a moment that some of the greatest minds in history were devout “believers!” In any case, though you may not take comfort in this… I WILL pray for you my friend! Specifically, for the conversion of your heart.
May the Lord be with you!
Jason
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"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don't like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself."
- Saint Augustine |
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golfjack
Lion King
Joined: 24 Aug 2005
Posts: 1127
Location: arizona
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| Posted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:49 pm Post subject: reply |
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Hi Jason, nice to hear from you. I am a direct kind of person as you know by now. Yes, I would like answers to my questions, and take all the time you need. You can even use the Catecism if you wish. I guess, I am kind of baiting you, but want to refute this discussion by using the Bible to prove where I believe Catholic thelogy is wrong. I hope that you have a Merry Christmas, and will continue to pray for you.
May God bless, Jack |
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