Differences in Interpretations........?

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

I only have a moment but wished to say something that I noticed that was very funny...

Every Protestant believes in Purgatory, you guys jsut dont call it that.

Pugatory is one of the most biblicaly cited convepts in the bible. It jsut doesnt use th word purgatory.

All, you have to agree with is that we are cleansed with the blood of the spirt...

Here is how it works.

Purgatory Defined - A place of cleansing of all evidence of sin from the body before entering heaven. It is not a place where you are debated on wheterh or not you will get to Heaven, You are already assured, you jsut need a "shower"...

So, why do I say that Protestants beleive in Purgatory as well?

First, you msut agree that God cannot let sin into heaven. To do so would curroopt the incorruptable.

so.. here we go...

We all sin... more than likley we will die with some level of unconfessed sin. it may be small or large, poitn is it doesnt matter the size. We will die more than likely with some little smudge that cannot be allowed into heaven.

So, How do protestants generally account for this? We are cleansed with his blood, this blood makes white what once was dull and gray with sin. Every time we confess a sin, the Lord God Cleanses us again.

I will Agree with that completely...

When we die, God sees our devotion to him, but sees a smudge, so, what does he do, he clenses us with his blood. We are now made pure and allowed to enter into heaven.

Assuming you agree wiht this statement,

Within reason, you are now in agreement with the Concept of purgatory...

We are Judged - Catholic and Protestants agree on this
We are Cleansed - Catholics and Protestants agree
We are allowed into Heaven - TADA

Steps One and two are the catholic definition of purgatory....

You guys jsut call it something else... but its the same thing...

How long does it take?
Dunno... could be instant, could take millenia, point is, it happens...

Like I said, if you agree we are cleansed with the blood of the spirit, then purgatory is about as biblical as you can get...

Anyway, feel free to amke comments...

I dont see any where else in Collosians where our views will Clash so, Unless ther eis an area you would like to talk about in Collosions...

How about one of My favorite Books Timothy 1 and 2...

We will start with 1 Tm ch 3...
Requirements for Church Leaders...

what based on this is your ideal church elder...

In Christ
Josh

golfjack · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 6:02 pm Post subject: reply

Hi Josh, feel free to discuss things with me. As you have probably noticed, I can be very bold and direct with my comments. No way do I believe there is a purgatory. I like your sense of humor. To me, to believe otherwise is saying what Christ did on the cross is done in vain. One cannot put Him on the cross again. He said it is finished. Purgatory to me sounds like a works belief, and I just can't buy that. Tommorrow, I will give you Bible verses that talks about the believers judgement. Try to mediate on them and see if they can convince you.

I am tired right now, and we can start studying 1 Timothy 3. tomorrow.

May God bless, Jack

golfjack · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 5:43 am Post subject: reply

Good Morning Josh, Here are a few scriptures that I said concerning the believers judgement: Romans 14:12; 1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Jn. 14:3; 1 Thess. 4:14-17; Jn. 5:22; 2 Ti. 4:8; 1 Cor. 3:15; 2 Jn. 8; 1 Jn. 2:28; 1 Cor. 3:13-15; Mk. 4:22; Rom. 2:16; Rom. 2:5-111; Matt. 12:36-37; Eph. 6:8; Matt. 12:36-37, and these are just a few.

May God bless, Jack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Good Mornign My Firend...

Like I said, jsut seems to me that both sides are talking abotu the same thing and jsut using differant terminology. But Im not going to push the matter.

Regardsless you gave me some good meat to chew on.

YOu know what though, you can answer one uestion for me. Hold on Timothy for a second...

WHat is the differances between an evangelist, and say your regular run of the mill misionaries regardless of church. Am I an evaggelist becasue I am trying to spread the word as well? or is there something more...

In Christ
Josh

golfjack · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:30 am Post subject: 1 Timothy 3

Hi Josh, well let's start in Timothy: I believe Paul had a threefold purpose in writing 1 Timothy. 1. to exhort Timothy himself about his ministry and personal life; 2. to urge timothy to defend the purity of the Gospel and its standards of godliness from corruption by false teachers; 3. to give Timothy instructions concerning various church matters at Ephesus.

3:1-7, if anyone sets his heart on being an overseer. 3:2 must be above reproach, literally meaning not to be laid hold of. This has to do with proven observable conduct that is blameless in Marital life, family life, social life and business life. No overseer should have a justifable charge of immorality or misconduct against him. Rather, he as a believer must have a blameless reputation with thiose inside and outside the church, having not marred his Christian life with serious sin or immorality by habit or incident. He, therefore, can be a godly example for young and old to follow. 3:3 NOT GIVEN TO DRUNKENNESS. It is obvious from scripture (OT and NT alike) that no believer (much less a spiritual leader) should be given to drunkeness. This does not appear to be Paul's point. He was trying to point out that to be near or with wine, or not being beside wine. In other words, an overseer should not be enticed by fermented wine (Proverbs 23:31).

I believer a leader in a church should not even have an appearance of evil. They don't go to bars for any reason. They don't smoke. They don't just live with someone before they are married, even if they sleep in separate bedrooms. There are many Christians that do this today. No sex before marriage. No gambling either. No foul language. When I went to Bible College, they told me if I was caught smoking or drinking, and even caught near a bar, studying all night with a female was all grounds for dismissal.

Now, I have some questions. Do Catholics still drink a lot? Do they still smoke? Do they still play bingo (gambling)? There was a Catholic Bishop in Arizona that killed a pediistrian while driving drunk. He said that he drank sacramental wine. I said to myself, this isn't a very good example.

Well Josh, it's your turn now. Feel free to express your views.

May God bless, Jack

golfjack · Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 8:41 am Post subject: reply

Hi Josh, we are called to preach and teach the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Having said that, you are an evangelist with the little e. It is God that does the calling, witnessed by the Holy Spirit. If one doesn't heed their calling, they will be held accountable to God. What does the NT say about evangelists? In the NT, evangelists were those God-called individuals who, like Phillip in Acts8, were especially gifted, anointed and commissioned to proclaim the Gospel of Christ and His kingdom to cities and unsaved individuals so as to waken faith (acts 8:4-40). When proclaimed, the gospel always carries with it the offer and power of salvation (Romans 1:16-17). The ministry of Phillip the evangelist (Acts 21:8) gives a clear picture of the work of an evangelist according to NT. pattern. Notice this: Many were saved and baptized with water (Acts 8:6, 12) Signs miracles, healings and deliverance from evil spirits accomplished his preaching. He wanted new converts to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Ac. 8:12-17. TRef. 2:38; 19:1-6).

Missionaries essentually are Apostles in todays church. Apostles certainly did not cease. If the church ceases to have Spirit-filled apostalic leaders who who point the wayy in spreading the gospel to the world, its spiritual and numerical growth will be stunted. Also, there are many false Apostles in todays world. There is so much more to say, but don't have time right now.

May God bless, Jack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Sorry for the response delay my friend...
Little too much of dailey life getting in the way...

Anyway...

For all intensive purposes I agree wiht your view of what a leader should be. We must however always remember that they are human though and will on occasion fall victum to sin. But IN essense, no problem wiht you view. Do you think being Married is a requirement for a church Leader? I ahve heard this both ways and was jsut curious on your take. Personally, it may help, but if a single man becomes a giver of the word in a particualr church, I dont see that as a problem. I knwo plenty of priest and pastors alike that have lost a wife for whatever reason and have taken up the cross of Church Leadership.

Regardless, somne of your statments perplex me. Especialy coming form you as I see you as a good hearted soul. Why do you ask do catholics "still" drink, play bingo, and smoke alot. Its a sad myth that i dont understand where it comes from...

For starters, jsut liek in your church, dont look at the lukewarm beleivers in your church. Are we allowed to drink at special occasions? Yes. Are we allowed to get drunk at said occasion? absolutly not, this is a sin. Smoking is considered a sin. thats an easy one. I do not know about your Diocese, but I have never seen bingo being played in a church here. The most I have seen is playing bingo simply for fun.No cash involved. Ussually associated with Church Fellowship days with picnics and such. Gambling again is a sin...

If however you are assuming all catholics are drunkards.. I can promis you this is false. Ask any of those on fire for christ in a CC and they will agree all those above statemnts are sins. In regards to the bishop. is it possible? yes. however, we must also consider this, he is a man that made VERY poor judgement. I do not condon his actions. But I do beg of you not to judge the church on the stupidity of others. and thats what it was.. STUPID and his stupidity cost someone their life. I am sure if you looked hard enough at ANY denomonation true and false, you will find there are these same people accross everywhere. To assum this is jsut an issue in the CC is very very wrong.

Not trying to be rude about that, its jsut i dont like bad myths being forwarded. and to say that ALL catholics are like that is a very very bad myth. Look at the true believers, not the lukewarm, and even then, you will still and always find sin.

If a Priest follows the teachings the church give them, they will fall in accordance of your guidlines. I have met both types of priests. Thankfully only one "bad priest" but many good. Something we dont think about is jsut as they pray for us, we msut always remember to pray for them too. These leaders in every denomonation are in this word and will be tempted to sin. To say we will not eb temoted again goes against biblical teachings. It is whether or not we follow those temptations that is important.

Again, I appologize if I seem abrasive, IT jsut bothers me to hear statements like that...

I pray you will not hold it against me...

May god Bless you greatly and bring peace upon you and your family
JOsh

golfjack · Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:29 am Post subject: reply

Good morning Josh, I am sorry I have offended you. I can only tell you of my past experiences and what Catholic's who have left the church that belong to my church, and others that I have brought to Christ through my ministry. I try my best not to loop Catholic's, and other denominations into one entity. I was brought up a Catholic, and went to all Catholic schools, even Catholic University (Creighton University). Not one time did they ever tell me how to be saved. This covers a span from 1950 to 1979. I have forgiven them in my heart, but that doesn't mean that I don't remember things in my mind. There are many incidents that I recall. My Children from a previous marriage have pretty much abanded me because I left the Catholic Church and divorced their Mother. When my daughter was married about 5 years ago, the priest told her that I couldn't walk her down the Isle because I was living in Mortal sin, and had left the church. By the way mortal sin is not biblical. I love my children very much and have told them so many times through letters, asking them to forgive me what they perceived I did wrong in parenting them. To this day, they will not talk to me.

As a child, I experienced a hard life. My Mother physically abused me, and Father who was a drinker didn't really comminicate well with me. One incident after a high school football game when I was captain of the team, they had Fathers night, my Father arrived drunk and really embarresed me. I didn't accept Christ until I was 38. My life before was an awful mess. I use to drink a lot, smoke, and other things I won't say because I just don't want to glorify Satan. This is just briefly what my past experience was. There is much more to tell.

Now, how do I see the Catholic Church today? They are changing a lot, which is good, but need to do much more. They teach about religious things, but in no way will religious things save anyone. Right now, the biggest problem I have with the Catholic Church is their understanding of salvation. When I ask a Catholic if they believe they are going to heaven, and they say I hope to. To me, this tells me they are not saved. This is sad to me. The Bible says we are saved by grace through faith, and nothing else. Romans 10:9-11 tells us how to be saved. Do I believe in eternal security? Absolutely.

Again, I know there are many lapse or bad Catholic's. You are not. Forgive me if I included with that group. Those Bad Catholic's are headed in a path of destruction, not less they repent, admit they are sinners, and can be part of God's family, where they can be of some good for the Body of Christ. As you might have noticed, I have a passion for the lost. I am praying for you Brother, and wait for your reply. Then we can back to studying God's Word.

May God bless, Jack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Good Mornign Jack...

No need to appologize. You experience is truely a sad one. And I cannot vouch for any other catholics other than those I ahve eprsonally met. I know what the church teaches, i cannot say the same for those that do not follow it. Please understand I was not saying that your memories are false, only that what the church actually teaches is fundamental differant than those you ahve witnessed.

In regardls to the question, "are we saved" and how you have received a response from catholics. By your definition, I am confident I am saved as would many other true catholics. By my definition I cannot be assured of my salvation until god judges me rightly so. Am am pretty sure, but I will stop short of saying I am because that is a judgement soley in the domain of God and God alone. I will Proclaim Christ as lord of Lords, in the Hopes he Proclaim me to his father. Paul said in many differant ways that he was unsure of his own salvation. This is why he spoke of the race we all must run. To say I am assured my salvation while I still exist on earth goes counter to what the bible says. We are then assuming we know what god thinks...

We are not saying we arent saved, we are mearly saying we cannot know if our name is in the book of life FOR SURE until the day of our judgement.
Think of it like a Hyporbola... you keep getting closer and closer to 'assured salvation' but you will never reach it until your judgment. That is the catholic view

Now with regards to Romans 10:9-11,

In my view, this is one verse that is over used as a belief in OSAS. What it doesnt say is declare it once, or continualy. Also, if this sole verse detirmined our salvation, then this would invalidate a large amount of other versus. Even many versus from jesus himself.

A few examples of this:

"Why do you cal me lord lord and not do as I say"

here jesus explicitly says there will be many that will call to him, but they will not be saved. They declared it with their own words.

The Parable of the Seed

This parable is a very detailed explaination of the differant types of christians. if you will notice, two thirds are not saved, but did declare jesus in heart and mind.

The Parable of the Vine

if a member does not produce good fruit, or is baren, it will be removed.

The Parable of the Branch

Just as the jews where cut off and gentiles where grafted in, so to can the gentiles jsut as easily be cut off

The parable of the race

Only those that practice till the end will be assured salvation

Faith and work

Faith without works is dead - works meaning leaving out the faith in your daily life and actions Faith ALONE cannot save.

Story of the Jewish leaders exorsizing demons in Jesus name
The demon responds I do not know you. Peter I knwo, and Paul i know, but you i do not. He proclaimed the name of jesus, fully believing IN HIS HEART it would work, but it didnt

This is jsut a sample, but you ge tthe idea. We cannot be ASSURED our salvation until we are judged worthy.

The bible is NOT contradictory, so, how then does Romans 10:9-11 fit into these... simple... everything we do must be for the lord god. Faith brings it all. Without faith, everyhting we do is pointless. With faith, so long as we act appropriately in it, does save. OSAS is not biblical in any way. it is only biblical if you deny large portions of the rest of the bible. I am not cherry picking my versus here, every verse every thrown at me that supports OSAS, when put in context with the rest of the NT is actualy against OSAS.

I will admit, you almost had me, I see this one verse and it says by faith and nothing else... but it was not in full context. once i looked at the overall context, the argument using this verse falls away. In Gods eyes we may already be saved, but WE cannot know that until he tells us so. Again, I can be pretty darn sure I am saved, and I am pretty darn sure you are, but we cannot be ceartain.

That is the differnace bt OSAS and Catholic view...

Hopefully this helps you see where I am coming form in this argument

You as well are forcing me to realy study what the Bible teaches... and that is always good

It has thus far been an honor to fellowship with you...

My the peace of christ be with you always
Josh

golfjack · Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:21 am Post subject: reply

Hi Josh, nice to hear from you. First of all, what is OSAS? For me, the most important thing about Assurance of Salvation: We have assurance of eternal life if we are conscious of the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. And this is how we know that he (Jesus Christ) lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us (1 John 3:24). Again, we know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit (4:13). Paul concurs in Ro. 8:16, The Spirit testifies with our spirit (remember when I told we are spirit, soul, and body? What do you think now? very important), The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.

There is much more, but I think I am either getting a cold or coming down with the flu. I am going to rest now.

May God bless, Jack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

You go take a break my friend...

Dont want your cold to linger any longer than it has to on my account...

OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved

Hope you feel better buddy

Josh

golfjack · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:09 am Post subject: reply

Hi my good friend, Still have a cold, but declare myself healed by the stripes of Jesus.

Here is my input on OSAS: Many Bible scholars have different views on this subject. Most Baptist's will say one cannot lose their salvation. I will give you my view as a Charismatic Word of Faith, spirit-filled Christian. Therefore, I do believe when can lose their salvation, but extremely hard to do. Having said that, if one does lose it, according to what is said in Hebrews 6:4-12, He won't get it back. If one thinks they have lost their salvation, they haven't. Christianity in the last 50 years or so, have really missed the point of who they are in Christ. To me, many live defeated lives because of false teaching, preaching, lack of confidence, ignorance, love, worldliness, not going to church to have fellowship with other Christians, becoming complacement, not studying the Bible and not renewing their minds to what the Word says about them, and the list goes on. Satan became a defeated foe when Jesus sat at the right hand of the Father. The Pauline Epistles tells us a lot about who we really are in Christ. I believe Christianity has become way to religious. It kind of plays, Got ya. So they think God is out to get them. It is the enemy that is throwing darts at us. The Word of God (God's will for us) is all we need to defeat the enemy. For example: we can say we can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. We are complete in Christ. Therefore, we have to say good things about ourselves, and not defeated words like, I am worthless, God won't heal me, I am a sinner, when I have been declared not guilty by the blood of Lamb. Does not the Bible say we can have whay we say? Read Mark 11:23-24. So, we must equip ourselves with the Word of God.

As far as OSAS, I am just going to trust Jesus, and hold my head up high, and be bold to come to His throne of Grace and mercy. The Bible says, my mercy endureth. No, I don't have to do penance, beat myself up, or the many things that mankind can dream up to save them. I am a Child of God, who loves me even when I am bad. There is no condemnation in the Lord. We can only condemn ourselves, or the enemy can.

In the final anyalisis, I believe the only way to lose salvation is to publically say, I now reject Jesus, get out of my life, and I will serve Satan. Continuing sin can lead to this, but if one is striving for spiritual growth, they are fine. Also, it would take a very mature Christian to lose their salvation, and I haven't seen that many. This is why I do believe in Eternal security. I guess, some might say I am just stupid enough to put my trust in Jesus Christ. YOU BET.

Well my friend, have a great day in the Lord, Jack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Whiel I thik it is easier to loose ones salvation than your discription, I feel this may be a discussion for a differant day.

I would however like to take a differant turn if you would be so kind...

Though I have no problem in explaining how I feel the spirit has led me, perhaps we should move to a less confrentational subject for now.

Ild liek for us to do more then mearly argue interpretation as I am sure we can both learn a great deal from each other.

You wanted to start with Collossians earlier, so, if you ahve no complaints, lets go through Collossions Chapter bychapter. Study it together. One chapter at a time. We will both put forth what we got out from it and take it form there. when we think we have beaten a chapter to death, we move to the next.

If you have no complaints. you may start whenever you are ready. If you want to take another day or two to rest, I understand.

Get well my friend

J

golfjack · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 12:29 pm Post subject: reply

Good afternoon Josh, The first Chapter in Colossians generally speaks about prayer and thanksgiving. It shows me Pauls love for them, and exhorts them to be faithful to what they heard in the truth, which is the Word of God. Paul wants to lead them out of a false Gospel, which was leading some to worship angels. He effectively said that Christ is not only our personal savior, but also the head of the church and Lord of the universe and creation. Therefore, Jesus Christ and His power in our lives, not human philosphy or wisdom, redeeems us and saves us eternally; intermediaries arre unnecessary, and we may approach Him directly. Being a believer means believing in Christt and His gospel, trusting him, loving him and living in His presense. We must not add anything to the gospel or promote modern, humanistic wisdom or philosphy. Verse 9 tells me the knowledge of God's will results from praying and remaining in His Word and in fellowship- with Him. In verse 9-12 Paul tells them he hasn't stopped praying for them. Effectively, he is teaching them how to pray on behalf of others, such as our children, friends, fellow believers, missionaries, pastors, etc. We must pray for spiritual wisdom, for living holy lives pleasing to the Lord, bear fruit for Christ, Giving thanks to the Father, continue in the hope of heaven, experience Christ's nearness, and be sincere and blameless, eagerly await the Lord's return.

We serve a Good God, worthy to be highly esteemed. He is called Jehova Jihra (God of plenty), called El Shaddai, (God of more than enough). Without God, we are absolutely nothing. He loves to be praised and asked in prayer in faith for many of His blessings. IT'S ALL ABOUT YOU JESUS. Are you starting to become Cathacostal? Ha, ha.

May God bless you, golfjack

golfjack · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:11 am Post subject: reply

Hi Josh, Is the site out of service?

May God bless, golfjack