Differences in Interpretations........?

golfjack · Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2005 12:40 pm Post subject: reply

Good Afternoon my friend. Boy, the Catholic has really changed in recent years, and I am happy to see that. My biggest concern is that Catholics are saved. I know for sure that a church can't save anyone, just like sacraments can't save anyone, or being moral, and doing good deeds. Through the years Catholics were told not to study the Bible. In 1950, the Pope actually forbid the flock to read a Bible, and let the priests teach it. I most certainly wouldn't rely on a man to teach it. Having said that, the Body of Christ requres good teachers. I have talked to many priests, and found out that they don't understand much of the Bible. One even told me that the Epistles were mere philosphy. If a particular book in the Bible disagrees with Catholic doctrine, they will say that book isn't inspired. As little as about 4 years ago On EWTN (Catholic TV), I have actually heard theoligians say that. Example: A question was asked how long the communion stays in one. The priests said about 15 minutes. Communion is taken as symbolic, and the Word says that Do this in remembrance of me. Again, my main concern is a Catholic comes to know God and not know about God. All I tell people is to get themselves in a Bible Based Church. They can go back to the Catholic Church and I guess share in it's traditions. Sorry, the reason I am so adament about how one is saved is because that kind of teaching would send me to hell. Therefore, keep on preaching the true Gospel to others, and believe me, God will reward you.

The Bible definition of Faith is found in Hebrews chapter 11, the faith chapter. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, and things not seen. The substance is God's Word, and things hoped for are the spoken Word of God (His Will, Bible is God's will). When we die physically, the body is done, caput. It is the spirit and soul that lives.

DIVORCE: This is probably the biggest problem Christians have today. The statistics are alarming. So, lets examine what the Bible says about divorce. Does God abhor divorce? you bet. Does God allow divorce? you bet. Let's examine 1 Cor. 7, Does the Church have a law about marriage, divorce, and remarriage? No. What does the Church have? the law of love. Romans 13:10 says Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Paul answered each of the questions of the Cor. by applying the law of love. Jesus gave this law of love to govern the Body of Christ in the last few chapters of the Gospel of John. You see, a new day was dawning, and a New Covenant was coming into existance. God gave us believers a new law. Love ye one another (John 13:34). How do we love one another? With natural, human love? No. That natural, human love can turn to hatred overnight. We love one another with the same kind of love that Christ loved us with, (the God kind of love).

This is just a little of what I believe. Can a marriage be restored? you bet. Do I advocate divorce? No way. But there are reasons for divorce. I believe the biggest problem in the church is that we seem to fall in love, which is good, but the God kind of love is essential to a lasting relationship. God chose us to love, and we should chose our mate the same way.

Well brother, I must leave for now, as I might lose this entire message. Why don't you answer back and then we can on to another topic.

May God bless you with all His riches and glory, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Good Morning Golf..

By They way, You can call me Josh...

while it is not my intention to debate what is taught and what is thought to be taught in the church, I just want to make some quick points on your statements.

Again, if the catholic church taught a majority of some of the things you are saying, i would leave her in a heart beat. Any church that would deny any aspect of Jesus is condemed.

While I cannot speak for what priest told you when you were younger, personnally, I have always been taugh that the bible should be read both in service, and in the home. St Gerome sums up the catholic position of reading the bible like this.

"Ignorance of Scripture is Ignorace of Christ"

The late John Paul II was a huge advocate of reading scripture. What is possible is what the priest meant when he said that was not that the average peson shouldnt read the bible, that has never been the catholic position, but more, we should not trust our own private interpretation without guidence. We cannot know if it is the Holy Spirit, our own pride, or a devil disguised in light. So, yes, in this case, it is the responsibility of ture church elders to aide in ones understanding. This is more than likely what is meant. and I will agree with this statement. You are helping me in understanding areas in the bible as well. Does that make you wrong. It seems you are trying to follow the Holy Spirit as well, so I would say no.

As far as I know, the church has NEVER claimed a book in the bible as Not inspired. And there is no verse in the bible that is contrary to what the church teaches in their undersadning. The only person I have ever known to try and say books are not inspired is Martin Luther. He removed 7 books from the OT because the jewish peopel took them out of their cannon in around 100AD. His logic was if the jewish people don't acknowledge it, why should we. If we are to persue that logic, then we are also not to use the entire NT. not a single True Jew will recognize the NT as inspired. Also, keep in mind he wanted to remove James and Revelations as well. Publishers didn't like that idea too much though...

If in regards to inspired you are talking about the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Mary Magdaline and such, this has nothing to do with because the Church does not agree with them as being the primary reason. Many of the "uninspired" books were written extremely late. For example, The Gospel of Thomas is at its best 150AD. some put it as late as 250AD. Also, it is full of Gnostic refrences, so, is opposed to the overall principles of christ and the accepted cannon. Almost all of the "uninsppired" gospels have serious flaws. Many include "Magically" resurfacing during times of strife of christianity. ussualy to show... see our position is correct. Ignore the wet ink. Others are simply a date issue and the church views them as. "They are good books, but too far removed time wise from the generation of Christ to be considered inspired"

your final point about communion - only some noncatholcis see it as a symbol and nothing else. so, this is more an interpretation issue on John 6 than anything else. Keep in mind catholcis aren't the only ones to say this. Eastern churches almost as a whole, Some Anglecan, some Lutheran beleive in the Full presence.

I thake John 6 for face value and not try and read into it. You must eat my flesh and drink my blood. If it was meant as a symbol, he would not have let those that run away do so but called them back saying It was only a symbol. If it was meant as a metophore and jesus was just seeing who was truely following, again, he didnt turn to the appostles and say see, it is only a metophore an they do not understand as he does with other metophores. He turns and says are you to leave as well...

But again, this is how catholcis and some noncatholics see this issue. It is not Contrary to scripture to see it as being the Full Presense.

One final note.

If there is any misconception i would love to displace it is that catholics are opposed to studying the bible and that the priest are told the bibile is unimportant. this is compeltely and truely counter to what the CC teaches. the way we look at the bible may be differant, but it is still of extreme importance. Catholics are told we must read the bible just as noncatholics. Almost every catholics that understands her teaching understands this statement. Catholics read the bible. Catholcis are told to read the bible. Catholics are told that NOT reading the bible amounts to Sin.

I know why there is such strife between catholic and noncatholic churches, dont know how to resolve it, but i know what it is.

Noncatholic view of the bible..

If it aint in scripture, dont mess with it!

Catholic View

If its contrary to scripture, leave it alone!

They seem very close, but the differances cause a great deal of problems.

You did make one statement that i want to applaud you on as you are correct. I might would have worded it differantly but in essense you are right. And thr CC would agree with you.

" All I tell people is to get themselves in a Bible Based Church. They can go back to the Catholic Church and I guess share in it's traditions"

WE (all chrisitans) must study scripture, we must try and understand scripture. If we dont, our actions in what ever tradition we call 'home' is futile. The Church maybe would have said it like this.

"All I tell people is to get themselves a Bible and study it. Then they can go to Church and understand and share in it's traditions"

but the enssense of what you are saying is 100% correct. and the Church agrees with that statement.

Catholcis WILL be judged very poorly if all they do is go through the motins and never study what Jesus wanted. AGREED
Catholics WILL NOT be judged poorly if they actualy followed what the church teaches.

Read the Bible. Study it. Learn about the traditions and how they relate to the bible. finally and most importantly above EVERYTHING else. Give yourslef to Jesus.

You bring up some very good points and conceptions that have been accused of the church, hopefully I ahve explained the CC position a little better.

Understand. it is not my intention to convert people for this denom->that denom. It is not my intention to make you catholic. My only intention is to try and dispell some of the myths about the chruch, even if only in one person.

You are a great follower of christ it seems. And if that fervor is strong in you were you currently reside, then i raise my hands say amen. It does make me sad that you have had such poor priests to refrence.

Our ultimate goal though is to live our live for Jesus.

this doesnt matter if you are catholic or not. CHRIST should and must be at the center of your life...

If you want to make any counter points feel free, otherwise... I am open to what ever topic you pick

The Peace of Christ eb with you always
J
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golfjack · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 6:47 am Post subject: reply

Good morning Josh, you can call me Jack. By the way, I love to play golf. You have probably read some of my posts about homosexuality, and have noticed that some who belong to liberal church's actually believe that homosexual acts are not sin. I can tell you for sure that God is not in that kind of Church. I just say this, as it upsets me, but after prayer, God showed me a verse (Proverbs 26:4). to end the debate.

I don't think it would do any good to discuss the Mary doctrine, purgarory, praying for the dead, purgatory, and other Catholic doctrines because to me they are not Biblical, but to you they are the teachings of the Catholic Church. You know I am fully convinced by a Pretrib view, and your view is posttrib or post millennial. I just hope you don't hold to a preterists view.

Why not study the book of Colossians? Every Book should be studied, but I spend most of my time in the Epistles because Paul is talking to believers and these letters are talking to us in today's world.

Paul wrote to the church there because was being infiltrated by false teachers who taught that commitment to Jesus Christ and adherence to the Gospel were inadequate for full redemption. This false teaching mixed human philosphy and tradition with Gospel (2:8) and called for worship of angels as intermediaries between God and humans (2:18). The false teachers demanded observance of certain Jewish religious requirements (2:16, 21-23) and justified their error by claiming revelation through visions (2:18). The underlying philosophy behind these errors appears today in the teaching that Jesus Christ and the original gospel of the NT are not adequate to meet our spirituall needs. Paul refers this heresy by showing that Christ is not only our personal, but also the head of the Church and Lord of the universe and creation. Therefore, Jesus Christ and his power in our lives, not human philosphy or wisdom, redeems us and saves us eternally; intermediaries are unnecseeary, and we may approach him direectly. Being a Believer means believing in Christ and his gospel, trusting him, loving him and living in his presence. We must not add anything to the gospel or promote modern, humanstic wisdom or philosphy.

I believe this is enough to start.

May God bless, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

I like the idea of going through books if you will Smile

great to find many points and counter points to talk about.

Its been a while since i studied Colosians, so if you wouldnt mind giving me the weekend to refresh myself with i would appreciated it. (currently studying the Leviticus)

If I may go through the points you made before hand though.

One thing to keep in mind about discussions with refrence to the gospels in the time of Paul is that there was no set list of accpeted Gospels yet. most had not even been written so this does not appy to the NT gospels. That being said, what they did have was the OT. In truth, and this applies even today. EVERYTHING we need to live a life according to Gods will is in the OT. The problem is, there are an extremely few number of people that are fully able to follow the laws and rules set by God in the OT with out the intervention of a redeemer. So, i completely agree with Paul in saying that the idea that scripture is inadaquate is false. But we must also keep in mind he is talking about OT. What does make this worse is people were trying to put there own spin on it. This further makes it worse. Christ dispised traditions of men that were not used to glorify HIM. I will stand by that statement till the day I die. In otherwords... I agree with you that the Colossians where practicing false teachings.

Furthermore, angelic worship is jsut as bad as Idol worship. So again I agree with you on this statement. They are messangers for God, they are the Army of God, they are the Heavenly Servants of God. I see nothing wrong in the belief in Angels, so long as you NEVER put angels above God. Sure fire way to hell...

While I do not remember the exact practices (wasnt it they still insisted on sacrafice?) I again agree that adheering to most of the Jews Laws is a moot point. Many of the laws in the jewish culture are for ways to redeem ourselves with god. Since christ gave his life for us on the Cross, these laws are no longer needed so again, claiming that we must adheer to the old laws is not correct as it is no longer needed.

While intercession is not outright required... it is strongly recomended by christ and all the appostles. Me asking you to pray for me for ____ is in no way shap or form bad and is infact encorouged. Can we go to god privately? yes. but we must remember that he also asks us to pray for each other.

"We must not add anything to the gospel or promote modern, humanstic wisdom or philosphy. "

You have NO idea how much I agree with you in this statement...
to say this is the bane of all christian denomonations is a massive understament...

Feel free to repost, but I am going to take the weekend to refresh myself with Collosians so that our conversation can be more fruitful.

Peace to you in christ my friend
Josh
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golfjack · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:14 am Post subject: reply

Hi Josh, I believe it is good for a Christian to have balance in their lives. This Weekend, I am going to take my wife to the mountains and relax, and enjoy God's creation. Also, make a little whoopie. Sometimes a Christian can become so heavenly that they are no earthly good, and sometimes so earthly that they are no heavenly good. I believe we should walk down the middle, and not go over the edge of a works or heavenly ditch.

Hope you have a nice weekend. Remember the Bible tells us to love our wives just like Jesus loves the Church.

May God bless you richly, golfjack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Hey Jack...

Very good words of wisdom...

You have a good weekend

In Christ
Josh
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If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

Nobby · Posted: Fri Oct 14, 2005 8:48 pm Post subject:

Hey Josh & Jack, in just a few words, what do you think
of "One-on-One? Very Happy

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golfjack · Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 12:42 pm Post subject: reply

Hi Nobby, One on one creates fellowship with other believers, and has formed a friendship with Heisenburg for me, even if we disagree on some Biblical points.

Maay God bless, golfjack

Nobby · Posted: Sun Oct 16, 2005 9:29 pm Post subject:

Jack I'm so glad for the two of you. Very Happy

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heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Good mornig to the Both of you Smile

I completely agree with Jack. Dispite or differances on some points in the bible, it is quite a joyful experience to discuss the word with someone openly, and am enjoying the company of a new friend that Where it not for out shared love of christ would not have found.

Jack -

When ever you are ready Smile

In Christ
J
_________________
If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:22 am Post subject: reply

Good morning Heisenburg, My wife and I had an enjoyable weekend. Hope you had a time of refreshing. Why don't we start with Col. 2:11?

My interpretation: In the OT, circumsion was the sign that the individual Israelite stood in a covenant relationship with God (see Ge. 17:11). It symbolized a cutting away or separation from sin and all that was unholy in the world. The believer under the NT covenant has undergone a spiritual circumsion, namely, the putting off of the sinful nature. Such circumsion is a spiritual act whereby Christ cuts away our old unregenerate nature of rebellion against God and imparts to us the spiritual or resurrection life of Christ (verse 12-13); it is a circumsion of the heart (Dt 10:16; 30:6; Jer. 4:4; 9:26; Ro 2:29).

Col. 2:18. My interpretation and application for today. This maybe hard for you swallow, but I firmly believe this. False teachers were saying that angels should be called on and worship as mediators in order for people to make contact with God. To Paul, calling on angels would be displacing Jesus Christ as the supreme and sufficient Head of the church (see verse 19); consequently, he warns against this. Today the belief Jesus Christ is not the only intermediary between God and humans is promoted in the practice of worshiping and praying to dead saints, who act as patrons and mediators. This practice robs Christ of His supremcy and centrality in God's redemptive plan. Worship and prayer to anyone other than God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are unbiblical and must be rejected.

Your turn now my friend.

May God bless, Jack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

Greetings my friend, Im glad you two had a good weekend Smile

With regards to circumsision of the heart. Agree compeletly. It is the "new" symbol of our faith in jesus. Though not the only one. So, for your interpretation of that aprt. no complaints.

Also, I do not differ with you one bit in regards to worshiping of anything else other than God. Furthermore, christ is the only Mediator that ultimatly matters. There are a few points that we do differ on.

First, while i do not do it very frequently, asking a saint to pray with me is no differant in my view than to ask a friend such as yourself to pray for me. It is not required for me to ask you to pray for me in times of need, but it is strongly recomended. If there is no harm in me asking you to pray for me, then the same rule applies to those that are already in heaven. No where in the bible does it say that they cannot hear us. Furhter more, they are not dead, but more alive than any of us here on earth. the only time jesus refers to those that are dead, are those that are lost to him.

Example:
The man who wants to join jesus but asks first to bury his father. Jesus rebukes him and as the man walks away, he turns to his disciples and says let the dead (the man) bury there own dead (his father).

the never refers to those that are with christ as dead. at most, they are asleep.

The biggest issue with this is not whether or not they can pray with us, but mroe can they hear us. Again, there is no evidence they cannot. it was also an accepted practice by jews of the time that we could ask those that are already gone before us to pray for us.

Evidence where they can hear us...

At the cross, Jesus upon his death cries out to heaven. The people misunderstand him and think he is crying out for Elijah to save him. Their response should be noted, they were NOT suprised by a man calling to someone that had gone before. If it was a shock, the response would ahve been much mroe severe than simply a ridiculing He is calling Elijah to save him.

In Revelations, the saintes and martyrs go to the Lord during the great tribulation with baskets full of prayers and incense saying My Lord, when will you avenge us. A few things can be noticed here. One, why do the Saints need to pray as they can now go directly to god. If it is not the prayers of the saints, then whose are they...
Second, Who are they desiring to be avenged. Those that are already in heaven have been awarded their tresure. Therefore, they msut be talking about those still on earth. It should also be noted that becasue they are asing for vengence, they are at the minimum aware of what is going on down on earth.

Also, refer to Ps. 103:20-21, 148:1-2. It shows it is OK to ask angels and saints to pray FOR us. jsut as you pray for me.

Another thing to consider is the early christians beleived this as well...

Here are some quotes from early christians PRE bible Post Pentecost...

Hermas
"But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you [Hermas], having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?" (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [AD. 80]).

Origen - "But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep" (On Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).

Pectorius - "Aschandius, my father, dearly beloved of my heart, with my sweet mother and my brethren, remember your Pectorius in the peace of the Fish [Christ]" (Epitaph [A.D. 250]).

Cyprian
"Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy" (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 252]).

Cyril of Jerusalem
"Then [during the Eucharistic prayer] we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition . . . " (Catechetical Lectures 23:9 [A.D. 350]).

I want to make one thing VERY clear...

Catholics do NOT worship saints, we do NOT worship statues, we NEVER EVER put anyone above Jesus. He is the ultimate and true mediator.

As I said, we simply ask them to pray with us. Since we beleive they can hear us, then there is nothing wrong with asking them to pray with us jsut as i ask you pray for me...

I will not argue this though, there are catholics that take this too far. These should either be corrected, and if this does not work, rebuked.

Keep in mind christ also said that the prayers of those in his full grace are the strongest of all..

Just understadn we NEVER put them above god.

Hopefully I ahve explained this sufficeintly.

In Christ Always
Josh
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If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 11:18 am Post subject: reply

Hi Josh, First of all, prayer is not required in Heaven. When in heaven or on earth we praise the Lord. On earth we can pray in line with the Word of God, and there is certain ways we can pray (prayer of faith, consecration, commitment, worship, agreement, pray in the spirit, tongues, united prayer, supplication, and intercessary. If you wish, I can back up these kinds of prayers by scripture. In the psalms, you mentioned David praising the Lord for all his creation, and not praising angels or the dead. He even praised God for the sun, stars, and everything that God has created. Furthermore, the dead that kept the Covenant with God weren't in heaven yet. They were in what is called Hades. There is 2 parts of Hades by the witness of Lazurus. One was in Abraham's bosom, and the other was in torment. A kind of holding pattern until Jesus sat at the right hand of God.

Yes, I can pray for you, that's for sure. As far as people in heaven, why would I insult God by praying to them? If I did pray to them, how do I know that there in heaven in the first place? Just because a Church cannanisies them, that doesn't mean their in heaven. Spiritually speaking, I am alive in Christ.

Elijah is one of the 2 mentioned in the Bible that didn't suffer Physical death. The other is Enoch. I believe they are the 2 witnesses mentioned in Revelation. The Jews at the time Knew that Elijah was taken to heaven by a Charriot. The Book of Revelation explains that Elijah will finally be persecuted. What is your definition of saint. I thought all believers are called saints.

The eigth angel mentioned in Rev. 8:3 is another angel of God. We don't know His name. Could be Jesus Christ himself. When interepreting scripture, it is important to interpret in context with the theme presented, and not to cherry pick it. Rev. 8:3 basiically says their prayers were to God. They were praying for vindication, but vengeance is for the Lord. Rev. 6:10 is a prayer of the tribulation saints because they were martyred for not denying Jesus. I can just imagine all the shouting and praise in heaven when we get a glimbse of the tribulation period for one half hour.

To answer your other points, I have no idea what the Shepherd 3:5:4, letters, and catechetical Lector. It seems to me that you are basing your beliefs on men, and not what is writen in the Bible. You know, they can be wrong, and so can the Catholic be wrong, as they have been many times in the past. Sorry about that.

May God bless, Jack

heisenburg · Ferret Joined: 17 Aug 2005 Posts: 109

No need to Appologies as you are saying a statement that can be true of all men.

there are realy only two points I wish to mention.

First: Catholics, myself included, do not pray to saints. We ask them to pray WITH us. There is a HUGE differance. Is a man who jsut lost his wife and cries for her in the middle of the night saying things like, honey, if you can hear me, know I still love you. Does this mean he is worshipping her? of coarse not. Does he know she is in heaven? no, but he hopes. It is sorta the same thing here. I beleive that the saints that ARE in heaven can hear us. I do NOT pray TO them. Simply ask them to pray WITH me TO Jesus. Just like me asking you to pray for me. With regards to this, it realy is no diffeant than me asking you to pray for me. I am not worshiping you. but you do help me in prayer.

Unfortuanntly, this goes to a fundamental understanding if you will of the way heaven works. To me, Asking a saint to pray WITH me is no differant than asking you you pray WITH me. i do ot pray to you to pray for me. I do pray with you.

That being said, i do understand where you are coming from, and I do respect your view, for me though, to say i cannot ask those in the full grace of god to pray WITH me is like me telling you you cannot ask anyone form the state of maine to pray for you.

I Keep putting emphasis on WITH because that is how it is. The moment i knowingly pray TO a saint, i am condemed to hell for I have put something before god.

Again, the core issue here is can they hear us. If they can, then so long as it is understood to ask them to pray WITH you, there is no problem.

With regards to statements made by men.

You are correct, men can be wrong. man can be very wrong. and i completely agree that anyone that basis there faith on men is also condemend. Do I base me belief on these stements? absolutley not. thye mearly coroborate my beleif. I was merely using this to show that the earliest christians. the ones taught by the disciples believed this. If they were doing something wrong, then the disciples would have quickly slapped them accross the face saying "Dont do that!!!" Paul was an expert at this inn his letters.

I do however refuse to believe that within 50 years of christs death, christianity had strayed this much.

all that being said, i do want to through this out...

1) We cannot be CEARTAIN who is in heaven, jsut as we cannot be sure who is in hell. thus is why i rarely use the right i have to ask the saintes in heaven to pray. the church mearly says we are pretty darn sure, but stops short of saying they are.
2) You are correct in saying saints no longer need to pray for us. that is why we ask them to. They dont have to, but one can always ask. The same goes for you. I may ask you to pray for me, but that doesnt mean you have to.
3) My definition of Saints - Those in heaven. That simple...
4) While I still hold to my view of Rev, you are correct in saying that i should not cherry pick... To me it is in context, but i will not continue to debate on these grounds as it appears our view on this verse is dramaticly differant as well as for the sake of not chery picking Wink

5) One other aspect has cropped up which again is a fundamental differance. Your arguemnt against early christian writters si that there statements may or may not be in the bible. It gets back to my view of so long as it is not contrary to the bible. Asking saints to pray for us is not expliitly said, though is implied. From your understanding of the bible, i can see where you are coming form. From myview of the bible, it is fine because it is not Contrary to the bible and supported becasue we are to ask other beleivers in christ to pray for us.

In any case, while you may not agree, can you atleast undestand why we say we are not pray TO them, but mearly asking them to pray WITH us?

The Peace of Christ Be With you Always
Josh
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If you can, pray 30 minutes each day, if your busy, pray for an hour

golfjack · Posted: Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: reply

Hi Josh, boy this is fun. These discussions lead me to really study the Bible, which is always good, as we don't want to become complacent. Yes, I can agree with you about praying with the saints in heaven. However, I wouldn't ask myself to pray with the saints. I am sure they are cheering me on to finish my race. Why did Paul call his members of the churches he established Saints? He certainly wasn't talking to dead people, and not some other Apostles.

Early church history is interesting. The book of Acts tells us how the early church was started. The last book was written by the Apostle John probably in 90A.D. I believe Augustine was the one who said that the gifts of Spirit ceased, and the Book of Revelation said that the second coming happened in 7oA.D. Was he wrong? you bet. I believe this was the belief of the Catholic Church until the sixteenth century. By the way, Pope John Paul believed in the rapture, and I think it is well documented. There will be a rapture and my friend you are going whether you like it or not (ha,ha). Origen and Augustine statements contradict each other.

From the 4th century to the seventh century are called the Dark Ages. At the start of the seventh century, there was Gnostism going on. I believe this is how the Muslem Religion started, and as a result many other false religions came into being, like JW'S, Mormans, Hindo's, Budda's, all basing their beliefs on false prophets. It is still going on in today's world, with much more deceit. Yes there are so called Christians in today's world forming up all over the world. In my city, there the Churches of Christ, United Church of Christ, United Pentacostals, some United Methodist churches, Unitarian/universalists, Preterest, based on a false assumption, and many more that I don't know about.

This is how I believe the Catholic started, not to be confused with the churches that I stated up above because I believe the Catholic Church is with the list of true believers. Paul was always being bothered by the Jewish Believers, and Juduiazers. What they did was go back to the Jewish traditions, and if one thinks about it, many of the Catholic traditions are old Jewish traditions. Have you ever tried to read the cannical books and Majestrioums, There must be millions of pages. For me, way too legalistic for me. One more point, Do you believe what Scott Hahn has to say in his published books? Father Groeshel on EWTN has said there is no such thing as purgatory (good for him).

Well, I guess I said a lot, but you know the old saying about evangelists, they never shut up. If you wish, you can start another topic or continue on in Colossians.

May God bless, Jack