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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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 Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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So wobjob what do you believe? Im not asking you to agree with anyone Im asking what are your beliefs?
Do you have a relationship with God.
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Christina |
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wobjob
Sea Monkey
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I do not believe in God, but I have nothing against anyone who does, I simply enjoy a good debate. |
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t-shirtsnjeans
Big Goldfish
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| wobjob wrote: | | I do not believe in God, but I have nothing against anyone who does, I simply enjoy a good debate. |
Well hooey, no wonder I gotta dumb down my posts!
I'll type slower from this point on 
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In the beginning God created,,.......any questions? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:55 pm Post subject: |
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| joman wrote: | | Also I note that your theory leaves no one with the ability to be creative, especially the older they get. Someone forgot to teoo Einstein. |
Einstein really didn't contribute much that worked in his later years.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 5:55 am Post subject: |
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| wobjob wrote: |
FFT obviously enjoys debating, and is skilled at it.
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Thats a personal feeling, One i do not share.
I think if a person is going to come here they should give their opinion of
what they believe in THEIR words. from what I see I think FFT has to much time on the computer look at the threads he started, Do they come about from questions he may have because of not understanding the Bible, Or are they ridiculous quotes from who knows who & copies of links that has nothing to do with what we are here to debate.
A Good debater knows how to stay focused, and is certain about the information he/she is debating about. - This is not FFT!
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Christina |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6338
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| christina wrote: | | Do they come about from questions he may have because of not understanding the Bible, Or are they ridiculous quotes from who knows who & copies of links that has nothing to do with what we are here to debate. |
They are my attempts to debate that which I believe. What quotes I have listed all have sources which can be found simply by reading the post they are in. The "copies of links" I post have everything to do with this section, as they are directly related to creation vs. evolution.
| christina wrote: | | A Good debater knows how to stay focused, and is certain about the information he/she is debating about. - This is not FFT! |
Please note how you have managed to completely derail this thread.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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wobjob
Sea Monkey
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Sydney, Australia
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| Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:12 am Post subject: |
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FFT posts a link at the start of a topic, which sets the debate in motion.
How can you have a debate without a question, and without everyone understanding the question? |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | wobjob wrote: | | I do not believe in God, but I have nothing against anyone who does, I simply enjoy a good debate. |
Well hooey, no wonder I gotta dumb down my posts!
I'll type slower from this point on |
I guess this is a prime example of Christian Love?
I would think one who sets out to have the Bible as their moral compass would know how to treat others. I would suggest you think twice before posting messages like this. You're doing your bretheren a great mis-service if you scare away the non-convinced even more from your beliefs.
Take this as a friendly remark on not letting your frustration shine through as evidently in posts made to those who do not share your point of view.
Fake
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| christina wrote: | | I think if a person is going to come here they should give their opinion of what they believe in THEIR words. |
Do you say the same about those who post nothing but verses from the Bible in their posts too? I've seen quite a few posts lately that is nothing but quotations from scripture.
Fake
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I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.
“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.” |
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thunder
Lion King
Joined: 13 Sep 2003
Posts: 1222
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 2:30 pm Post subject: Scriptural literal ... |
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Scriptural literal ... believers often use only bible text because they let the word speak for itself.
Often, people use just scriptural text because they are being careful to not offend God by stating personal opinions, expecially of interpretation and application.
Some simply don't have the confidence in their own position in the matter being discussed to attempt to say something beyond scripture.
Some prefer to paint by the numbers and others prefer a clean canvas on which to portray what they see ( in their own mind ).
Others, who may have a gift from God, feel obligated to share what they have been told through personal experience, study, research, are inspired and the Spirit gives them unction.
Seperating fact from fiction, truth from imagination is a tedious work.
thunder
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Submit to God in Christ |
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christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
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| Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah Thunders right; but i understand why Fake asked that question sometimes its hard to understand the point someone is trying to prove when they show scripture but not an explanation of what they mean,
not all the time just sometimes!
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Christina |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | if a person is going to come here they should give their opinion of
what they believe in THEIR words. from what I see I think FFT has to much time on the computer look at the threads he started, Do they come about from questions he may have because of not understanding the Bible, Or are they ridiculous quotes from who knows who & copies of links that has nothing to do with what we are here to debate.
FFT posts a link at the start of a topic, which sets the debate in motion.
Do you say the same about those who post nothing but verses from the Bible in their posts too? I've seen quite a few posts lately that is nothing but quotations from scripture. |
I wanted to highlight these comments because they represent a growing trend on this board which I find disheartening and completely irritating; The posting of a link or quote, or bible passage with absolutely no comment from the poster.
This does not further debate, nor intitiate discussion, it wastes board space and my time as a member of this board. If one feels strongly enough about a quote or website that they feel they want to bring it here for discussion, then one should be courteous enough to post some comment about it, to begin the discussion. It is a matter of courtesy, and respect for the fellow board members.
My personal desire is to simply delete those posts which simply quote bible verses, or links or some such without corresponding comments from the poster, as I feel that if the information quoted was not important enough to the poster for him or her to add comments, then it certainly is not important enough for me to spend my time looking at. I have not acted in this fashion however although it is extremely hard not to click on the "Delete This Post" icon I have available to me.
Bottom line? This is a discussion board, discuss the information you quote or post, don't just simply throw it out there.
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 848
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:20 am Post subject: |
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Quotes by Gbunty,
| Quote: | | It would certainly be preferable to understand the mechanism, but that lack does not render the movement imaginary. |
You have to imagine the plates doing things that have no reasonable possibility of happening. The only evidence at this time would be secondary effects, which effects are subject to interpretation. The secondary efrects, such as the kind of crust material found at the theorized boundary locations where subduction is expected by the proponents of the theory are contrary to the theory. The material they found was from the surface of the earth.
| Quote: | | My computer is not imaginary just because I have not the faintest idea of how it works. |
This isn’t a good analogy is it? Someone does know how the computer works (me for example). When something is testable in a repetitive way, we who verify the tests become knowledgable. Our knowledge itself becomes provable in that we also can be tested as to our depth of understanding.
Knowledge and understanding of what goes on under the surface of the earth is nebulous. We imagine what might be occurring but, until it is verifiable it must remain imaginary. This is the way it is unless, the theory explains many secondary evidences. The hydroplate theory answers many questions, although not all. Plate tectonics raises more questions, and answers none that I’m aware of.
| Quote: | | Or to take another example, we have known how to measure the force of gravity ever since Newton. And no one would claim that our experience or measurement of gravity is imaginary. But we still do not have a scientific explanation of the mechanism of gravity. We know it exists, we can measure its force, but we do not know how it produces its effects. |
It is true that science answers nothing absolutely, but taking this case in point…
Plate tectonics isn’t a measurable thing. The measurements made do not convince anyone that the theory of plate tectronics is valid. As I’ve pointed out the same measurement of the movement of the continents is better explained by the hydroplate theory.
| Quote: | | We know the plates exist. |
Yes, they exist but, since when? They could have come into existence when the shell that is the mantle of the earth cracked and allowed the flood of Noah to occur in conjunction with the opened windows of heaven. That is, the plates were formed by the cracking that occurred when the fountains of the deep were broken up, and in no way show movement as defined by the tectonic plate theory. Imagine a sphere with ten plates…just how are the plates going to move about? By what enormous force are they even to begin to move? And, how could they be reasonably thought to slide under each other, or to melt? There just isn’t a reasonable scenario to consider.
| Quote: | | We know they are moving, we know the rate and direction of their movements. We can predict where they will be and calculate where they were, just as we can predict eclipses and calculate when eclipses occurred in the past. |
And, the hydroplate theory does the same. The motion measured today is residual.
| Quote: | | Maybe scientists haven't explained how subduction occurs to your satisfaction, but that doesn't render any of the observations imaginary. |
Has it been explained to your satisfaction?
The measurements are not imaginary, but the interpretation is, since the interpretation lacks a mechanism whereby to cause the motion. And, the interpretation raises questions about where and how the plates dissappear to. The hydroplate theory explains how they began movement. Why they moved. And, there's no need to conjure up dissappearing mantle rock.
| Quote: | | And speaking of missing mechanisms, the hydroplate theory has no mechanism for dissipating the immense heat produced by rapid catastrophic continental movement. |
Yes, it does. The friction is far less since, water is a lubricant. And, the frictional forces that stopped the motion gave evidence to it by the huge volcanic activity revealed by the geology of the earth. volcanic activity that is in the right place. Once you realize it occurred in a short time you’ll discover that all of the volcanic evidence reveals a enormous amount of heat release occurred due to a catastophic event.
| Quote: | | Brown's theory as it stands would turn the earth into a furnace hot enough to boil sand. |
This isn’t true either. The geology of the earth reveals many anomalies due to tremedous heat, and not only heat, but also great pressure and rapid cooling. The waters of the flood were available for cooling. The geology of the earth very well fits with the catastophic action of the biblical account of the Deluge. Did you know that the basement rock of the continents is granite that can only be formed radidly under great heat and pressure followed by radid quenching? If not cooled almost immediately the granite forms rhyolite instead. The evidence of catastrophic metamophesis in great volume under great pressure, temperature and rapid quenching by water is everywhere in the geologic formations throughout earth. Fossils are not being formed today anywhere in apredicatable way. If it occurs it is at the minimum a catastrophic local event such as Mt. St. Helens.
Joman. |
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joman
Tiger
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 848
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| Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2005 8:01 am Post subject: |
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Quotes by Wogjob.
| Quote: | | Have you heard of a thing that happens while you sleep, called a dream? |
Coma and sleep aren’t the same. and, surely you've noted concious thought occurring in your dreams? Haven't you ever noticed that while in the dream your still yourself, howbeit that your in a imaginary predictament?
| Quote: | | You misunderstand me, of course I can resist going to the bathroom, but I can't remove the feeling that I need to go. |
But, you said your mind and brain were the very same thing. You want it both ways don’t you? When you think your in charge it’s your brain and when you admit your not it’s also your brain and yet, you claim that your will power is your whole brain. If you were correct, you could will your autotomic systems to obey you but, they the fact is they won't obey you. I think it is clear that someone designed the autmatic systems to disobey your will for your own well being.
You resistance to going to the bathroom is an act of the will that is contrary to the dictate of your brain...don't you see you can't have it both the same way? Scientists have noted long ago that he will is independent of the mind and the brain. Haven't you ever had a song play in your mind contrary to your desire to listen to it. Who's in charge? My own experience is, that I'm in charge, and although I can be influenced by factors in and out of the body, I decide what my mind does. The Devil seeks to inject notions into the mind contrary to my determination not to obey them and the fight is on. If there's a fight then there are two parties attempting to seek control or to maintain it. One of the secrets of TM is to produce a decieved state of mind wherein a person forfeits his or her own will by default. The Devil comes seeking to steal.
Idon't understand your logic here. I don't think you've thought about it enough. The fact that this happens doesn't mean the brain can't deteriorate. Also, how does this remove creativity? If anything, it promotes creativity, seeing as people are all creative in their own way, based on who they are. For example, a musician's style of musical writing will always be a unique style that you can often tell is that person's.
You can’t be creative withoutbeing in charge. All your doing is being in charge of what you want to say your in charge of and then reversing that whenever you need to say your not. If you are mechanistically predetermined then your not in charge. Also, child prodigies reveal that their abilities are not the product of their enviroment. The unigueness of individuality in all it's manifestations is evidence against materialistic determinism. And so is originality since it cannot be explained by the force of some pre taught mechanisms.
Regardless you humanist theology of materialism is non-scientific. The Soviets tried ceaselessly for 80 years with complete failure. You have chosen to believe what you have and you will thereby, be responsible for your choices. I believe in Jesus because I choose to. Communists have always tried to brainwash and dictate what others think or believe and it is obvious that they are failures. Religion was around when Voltaire attacked it and it’s around long after he's been dead. And his last words were about how he felt the flames of hell at his feet. Religion was around when Lenin and Trotsky and Stalin attacked it and it’s still here. How? Free-will of the common man who wasn’t changed one iota by the power of propaganda nor bogus science.
Joman.
Ps. The alzhiemer thing is a joke about being set in our ways as we age after the effects of the enviroment have been maximixed. That is, that if we were materialistically determined then, the older we get the more pronounced in our ways we "have to" be and no one would be immune either. This is proven wrong by many people. You might think it proven right somewhat but the question then becomes…is your “determined behavior (which extends supposedly to faith)” a statistical thing or a law? Anyway, you have no evidence to support your theorizing. And, plenty of evidence to the contrary. Maybe you can fill in the subtle distinctions admitted to in your thoery. But, I think your trying to patchwork a leaking balloon that’s full of hot air. |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: |
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| joman wrote: | | When you think your in charge it’s your brain and when you admit your not it’s also your brain and yet, you claim that your will power is your whole brain. If you were correct, you could will your autotomic systems to obey you but, they the fact is they won't obey you. |
I don't think wogjob ever said "will power is my whole brain." Can you offer any proof that your assertion "If you were correct, you could will your autotomic systems to obey you?" I would like you to prove it because it is palpably absurd. No one is suggesting that the impluses to go to the bathroom or sleep or make your heart beat come from the same nerve tissue as the idea for a good book or the decision to beat your wife. In fact all scientific evidence shows these all come from different parts of the brain. The human brain may all be in your skull but don't think of it as one machine, different parts conflict and inspire different reactions to different situations. Will power is the result of being able to consciously pick through these different impulses and choose the one you want and to act on a previously decided plan. For your edification read up on "split-brain" patients, those who have had their corpus callosum severed.
Also would you say that the ability to understand language/english comes from the brain or whatever else it is you think pupeteeres your body around the globe?
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"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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