 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
|
 Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:39 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| Quote: | | Then I'm disappointed that you would choose to think of such a being as "good," or "worthy of worship." |
Why? What makes you, or anyone, worthy? Are you so great, or lovable that it is incoceivable for you not to be chosen by Him to believe at this time? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5860
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
A parent whom abuses their children is not worthy of their children's respect.
A government which abuses its citizens is not worthy of its citizens' respect.
A god which abuses its lessers while claiming to love them is not worthy of worship. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 3:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
All quotes are Gbunty's.
| Quote: | | I am not a geologist. |
That's alright...Darwin wasn't a scientist!
I | Quote: | | don't know how to explain the mechanism. But even without knowing the mechanism, I don't understand why you would call it a flaw. |
There aren’t any scientist able to explain a mechanism able to force continents to move, much less slide a 50 mile thick layers of rock under another 50 mile layer of rock. The flaw is, "the lack of mechanism to do such a tremendous physical thing".
| Quote: | | The movements of the plates are being measured. The rate and direction has been measured. |
The movements of the plates are incredibly slow. The assumption made by uniformitarian minded scientists is that the rate of movement has been the same in the past as it is today. There isn’t any evidence to back this notion up…thus it remains an assumption. The hydroplate theory proposes that the movement of the continents was rapid and catestrophic. It was due to the breaking up of the fountains of the deep, the lifting up of the mid atlantic ridge which was produced by the low pressure all along the fracture, and the low friction of the hydroplane produced by the subterrainian water. The continemts of North America and South America slid downhill towards the Pacific Ocean basin, which had collapsed due to the weight of the global flood waters sitting on the patrially water evacuated caverns. The collapse of the Pacific Ocean floor removed an obstacle and allowed the sliding of the continents. The continents slid until they hit enough basement rock to be slowed down. The friction of the braking action melted the basement rock and crushed the continental rock allowing volcanoes to form rapidly. The west coast mountain ranges were formed immediately as revealed by their sharp peaks and the compression wave heading east (Newtons law) formed many features evidenced today culminating in the Applachian moutain ranges. The global flood had formed many thick layers of sediment that was still soft and therefore conformable to the wavelike patterns found in the east that couldn’t have been formed if the rock layers were stiff and brittle. Extrusion of molten minerals and rock of various sorts ocurred due to the friction produced in the depth of the sliding continents, and the open pathways made available by the crushed rocks directly above. Evidence of this is everywhere. I myself have carefully noted that the revealed sedimentary layers along highways are often not parrallel to the horizon but bend with the hill which reveals that the layers were soft and pliable at the time of formation. Even in Kansas it is easily observed that for vast distances there is the remaining evidence of wave pattern to the plains which is due to the compression wave passing through on it’s way east. The Deleware Water Gap which I have seen is a clear example of a massive bending of pliable sediment into and out of the earth.
The rate of continental movement today is the residual motion not yet absorbed and is assuredly one of the dominant earthquake forming forces as the continent continues to press towards the west coast and it’s weakened strata.
| Quote: | | We know it is happening. |
We only know what the measurements are. This is not to be equated with understaning the processes and causes of what has been measured. This is one of the basic flaws in the reasoning of evolutionism as well as creationism. we ought not confuse interpretation with fact.
| Quote: | | We know the sea floor spreads. |
This is not true. It isn't speading at all today. And, you may have heard that there are magnetic reversals in the rocks near the mid Atlantic ridge but, this is false also. There are not magnetic reversals but simply evidence of magnetic amplitude variation which isn't consistent with the fracture zone in many places.
| Quote: | | The places where plates are being subducted are known. |
This is not proven either. Where thetheorists expect subduction to ocurr has been specified but, the gathered evidence is against the theory. The evidence is against this because of the rock material found at the locations your referring to.
| Quote: | | We can measure the rate of subduction. |
There isn’t any proof of subduction. Nor, is there a mechanism that begins to explain how it ever could happen. Your presenting opinion as though it were fact. But, if you go look at the scientific facts you will discover that no proof of subduction exists.
Something that is happening right before our eyes and can be measured cannot be impossible. It cannot be a flaw in the theory, since it is an observed fact.
No one is saying that anything measurable is impossible. But, the flaw is in the lack of any explaination for the sliding of continents, or the subduction of thick layers of rock. The evidence is simply not there.
Your argument based on observed facts is specious because the devil is in the "interpretation of the facts", and not in the fact, or facts, themselves.
Mountains are rising incredibly slow in some (not all) places of the earth but, as with the movement of the continents there isn't a mechanism that can explain mountain building. Except of course...catastrophy.
Joman. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5860
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
| joman wrote: | | There aren’t any scientist able to explain a mechanism able to force continents to move, much less slide a 50 mile thick layers of rock under another 50 mile layer of rock. The flaw is, "the lack of mechanism to do such a tremendous physical thing". |
There appear to be two prevailing theories as to what is causing the plates to move. Both of these are detailed here: Link |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| FFT wrote: | A parent whom abuses their children is not worthy of their children's respect.
A government which abuses its citizens is not worthy of its citizens' respect.
A god which abuses its lessers while claiming to love them is not worthy of worship. |
Pray tell, what abuses could you possibly be thinking of? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5860
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:11 am Post subject: |
|
|
Any I would name would simply be labeled the results of a "lack of understanding," and dismissed. This mostly seems to be under the label of the "created judging the creator," or perhaps the "judged judging the judge," and "invalid" as such.
My personal "prophecy" is that should we one day create a computer with actual intelligence, it will be quite capable of judging us, throwing all this "created judging the creator" bunk out the window.
But, in an attempt to humor you:
A god which lords eternal salvation over his lessers, while denying many the ability to make a choice in the matter, is abusing his lessers. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
God's salvation is open to all who would believe. The difference is that no one seeks Him.
I'm assuming you are referring to predestination, but you fail to understand that His glory and call to salvation is put out for the entire world to see and accept. That you are here, discussing on a bible discussion site is evidence that you have heard the general call. That you reject Him and His offer of salvation by Grace through faith, is entirely your choice. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5860
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: | | That you reject Him and His offer of salvation by Grace through faith, is entirely your choice. |
And that's the mistake you continue to make.
It is not my choice that I refuse to believe in something which is illogical. It is common sense. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | It is not my choice that I refuse to believe in something which is illogical. It is common sense |
So you are not in control of your own life and your own decisions? I thought that was the scope of your whole reality, that you determine what you feel is logical or not and you chose what to believe or not. Are you saying you are subject to influences beyond your control which determine what you will or will not believe? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
christina
Cobra
Joined: 01 Nov 2004
Posts: 456
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 7:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
| FFT wrote: | | I am perfectly open to God showing me evidence that he exists. If he exists, he knows perfectly well my qualifications for believing in him. That he does not act on this shows that either a: he does not exist, or b: does not want me to believe that he exists. Occam's Razor says he just doesn't exist. |
Your here right. What makes you continue to come to us on this board?
What is it that draws you back? Hello maybe its HIM.
| Quote: | | It could very well be that it is not in His plan for you to believe. |
I agree that it may not be in the plan for some people to believe,
But I dont see it this way for FFT. I believe he is here for a reason, he returns for a reason and for some reason even though the feeling may not be mutural I believe he belongs to God.
Thats is why he returns something in him is bringing him back.
FFT you are the only one preventing yourself from understanding.
You block yourself from believing if you take those blocks down your questions and doubt will be explained.
God is not of this world you need to communicate with him through your heart. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wobjob
Sea Monkey
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 8:15 am Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: | | So you are not in control of your own life and your own decisions? I thought that was the scope of your whole reality, that you determine what you feel is logical or not and you chose what to believe or not. Are you saying you are subject to influences beyond your control which determine what you will or will not believe? |
There are things such as belief that don't happen on a conscious level, you can't just choose to believe something, the experiences you've had and the way you percieve the world determine that for you.
One must understand that the brain is an organ, and the "mind" and the brain are the same thing. Many people have a spiritual conception of the "mind" as something that lingers somewhere inside your head, but this is false, the mind and the brain are the exact same thing.
The brain is made up of a huge mass of cells that fire together in clusters whenever you do or think anything.
As you grow, these cells become more used to firing in certain patterns, similar to how if one pours water constantly over a lump of wax, it will erode and grooves will form that the water will run through more smoothly.
Because of this, people develop patterns in the way they think and the way they do things.
For instance, if f someone has been skeptical of things their entire life, they will almost always need some form of solid evidence to make them believe something.
In understanding this, you can understand how something like belief is not conscious or decidable, just like needing to go to the toilet or any other human function isn't conscious or decidable.
| christina wrote: | Your here right. What makes you continue to come to us on this board?
What is it that draws you back? Hello maybe its HIM. |
How does this prove anything? If you enjoy a particular brand of chocolate pudding, what is it that draws you back to buying that particular brand of chocolate pudding each time?
You're drawn back because it's something you enjoy.
FFT obviously enjoys debating, and is skilled at it.
The best debates ask the questions that require the most thought and the most argument, and those are in abundance here.
Therefore, it is much more likely that FFT is drawn back to this board, like a person would be drawn back to a chocolate pudding they enjoy, by the questions he enjoys debating. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 9:40 am Post subject: |
|
|
So according to you, wobjob, we are just pre-programed computers with no ability to make conscious decisions, is that right?
I'm sorry, but that is unsupportable by a miriad of psychological and sociological studies. Behavior therapy for one proves that you are incorrect. People are more than capable of making decisions, to chose, to believe or not believe; to choose to act or not to act, to react or not to react. That so many of them do not make those decisions and just let the automated pilot do it for them is not an inclination of an inability to do so.
I'm sorry my friend, you are describing animals run by instinct, not humans governed by intellect.
BTW, welcome to the board. Glad to have you with us. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joman
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 07 Jun 2004
Posts: 716
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:12 am Post subject: |
|
|
Quotes are Wobjob's.
| Quote: | | There are things such as belief that don't happen on a conscious level, you can't just choose to believe something, the experiences you've had and the way you percieve the world determine that for you. |
You couldn't stop from writing this?
What evidence do you have for believing that your not free to believe what you believe? If your not free to believe as you conciously wish then how do you know whether or not your being forced to believe what you just wrote. And, if you couldn't conciously choose to have your own belief then there's no point in reading your posts is there? Unless of course I couldn't stop myself from reading it and thinking how confused you are.
| Quote: | | One must understand that the brain is an organ, and the "mind" and the brain are the same thing. |
Are you unwittingly driven to believe this statement or are you wittingly complelled?
It is obvious that the mind and the brain are not the same thing. If your brain is unable to obey your mind your mind is still able to command it anyway. Scientists have sought for the center of the "will" and have not found it in the brain. So where is it?
They proved this by using probes to produce emotions, memories and movement of the body while taking note of the fact that the person forced to experience them recognized that the manifestations were contrary to their will.
You can't hypnotize a person against their will. Furthermore, even if hypnotized people cannot be forced to go against their moral beliefs. You can however, as the Devil is want to do, get people to do things contrary to their will by deceiving them about the truth. This is what occurs when people believe in evolutionism.
| Quote: | | Many people have a spiritual conception of the "mind" as something that lingers somewhere inside your head, but this is false, the mind and the brain are the exact same thing. |
Can you describe a scientific experiment that proves this?
Have you heard about comatose people who although their brain was inoperative as far as doctors could discern nevertheless, upon awakening they described concious thought as being theirs during the coma?
| Quote: | The brain is made up of a huge mass of cells that fire together in clusters whenever you do or think anything.
As you grow, these cells become more used to firing in certain patterns, similar to how if one pours water constantly over a lump of wax, it will erode and grooves will form that the water will run through more smoothly.
Because of this, people develop patterns in the way they think and the way they do things. |
If this were true then Alzhiemer's wouldn't be a desease but the gift of old age for everyone, which it is not.
Also I note that your theory leaves no one with the ability to be creative, especially the older they get. Someone forgot to teoo Einstein.
| Quote: | | In understanding this, you can understand how something like belief is not conscious or decidable, just like needing to go to the toilet or any other human function isn't conscious or decidable. |
Let me get this right...you can't even muster the faith to believe you can resist going to the bathroom?
I recognize you belief. It's the religion that pervade communism. If you can believe that! Your bosses hope you obey them in thought and deed so they told you this lie and...well you had no choice but believe it.
The Bible says that God is going to send a delusion to all who hate the truth. He considers it justice to give you what you want if you persist in wanting it after he tells you how foolish it is. That's what's wrong with FFT, in my opinion. He's angry because the truth won't go away after he convinced himself it wasn't true. Reprobates are also this way. After they resist their own concience (which you must deny exists) to the point of searing it with a hot iron to shut it up...well.. the last thing they want is some free-willed person reminging them of the error of their ways.
Joman. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gbunty
Alley Cat
Joined: 28 Jun 2004
Posts: 182
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 4:33 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| joman wrote: | | There aren’t any scientist able to explain a mechanism able to force continents to move, much less slide a 50 mile thick layers of rock under another 50 mile layer of rock. The flaw is, "the lack of mechanism to do such a tremendous physical thing". |
It would certainly be preferable to understand the mechanism, but that lack does not render the movement imaginary. My computer is not imaginary just because I have not the faintest idea of how it works.
Or to take another example, we have known how to measure the force of gravity ever since Newton. And no one would claim that our experience or measurement of gravity is imaginary. But we still do not have a scientific explanation of the mechanism of gravity. We know it exists, we can measure its force, but we do not know how it produces its effects.
Same with plate techtonics. We know the plates exist. They have been mapped. We know they are moving, we know the rate and direction of their movements. We can predict where they will be and calculate where they were, just as we can predict eclipses and calculate when eclipses occurred in the past. Maybe scientists haven't explained how subduction occurs to your satisfaction, but that doesn't render any of the observations imaginary.
| Quote: | | The hydroplate theory proposes that the movement of the continents was rapid and catestrophic. |
And speaking of missing mechanisms, the hydroplate theory has no mechanism for dissipating the immense heat produced by rapid catastrophic continental movement. Brown's theory as it stands would turn the earth into a furnace hot enough to boil sand. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wobjob
Sea Monkey
Joined: 30 Sep 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Sydney, Australia
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 6:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| RevJP wrote: | | So according to you, wobjob, we are just pre-programed computers with no ability to make conscious decisions, is that right? |
No, we have the ability to make conscious decisions, but belief just isn't something that happens consciously. I was a little blunt in my previous statement, and I could have phrased it better. If you have been brought up your entire life to believe something, you can't just change your mind at will. You know what you know.
Think about it like this, if I'm staring at a piece of bread, I can't just decide to believe the bread doesn't exist, my common sense just won't let me.
| RevJP wrote: | | People are more than capable of making decisions, to chose, to believe or not believe; to choose to act or not to act, to react or not to react. |
To choose to act or not to act is very different from being able to choose to believe or not. You can act upon anything that influences the world around you, but you can't just decide to change your personality or your set of beliefs.
I'm not saying someone who believes there isn't a God can't change their mind, or a person who believes there is a God can't change theirs, they just have to be convinced. Could you just decide to stop believing in your religion just on a whim?
| RevJP wrote: | | BTW, welcome to the board. Glad to have you with us. |
Thank you, glad to be here.
| Joman wrote: | You couldn't stop from writing this?
What evidence do you have for believing that your not free to believe what you believe? If your not free to believe as you conciously wish then how do you know whether or not your being forced to believe what you just wrote. And, if you couldn't conciously choose to have your own belief then there's no point in reading your posts is there? Unless of course I couldn't stop myself from reading it and thinking how confused you are. |
Yes, I could have stopped from writing this, because it's a conscious decision that is outside myself. I can choose to do something outside me, but I can't just change my personality on a whim.
| Joman wrote: | | Are you unwittingly driven to believe this statement or are you wittingly complelled? |
Both. I am wittingly compelled to think about it, research it, and then unwittingly driven to believe it because what I have read and the evidence for it tells me it's correct.
| Joman wrote: | | It is obvious that the mind and the brain are not the same thing. If your brain is unable to obey your mind your mind is still able to command it anyway. Scientists have sought for the center of the "will" and have not found it in the brain. So where is it? |
The "will" is basically another way of saying the "mind", which is just the brain. There is no "centre" for the will, because your entire brain works together to make up your mind.
| Joman wrote: | Can you describe a scientific experiment that proves this?
|
I am not a brain surgeon, so no, I can't off the top of my head. I will try however, to find one for later reference.
| Joman wrote: | | Have you heard about comatose people who although their brain was inoperative as far as doctors could discern nevertheless, upon awakening they described concious thought as being theirs during the coma? |
Have you heard of a thing that happens while you sleep, called a dream?
| Joman wrote: | Let me get this right...you can't even muster the faith to believe you can resist going to the bathroom?
|
You misunderstand me, of course I can resist going to the bathroom, but I can't remove the feeling that I need to go.
| Joman wrote: | If this were true then Alzhiemer's wouldn't be a desease but the gift of old age for everyone, which it is not.
Also I note that your theory leaves no one with the ability to be creative, especially the older they get. Someone forgot to teoo Einstein. |
I don't understand your logic here. I don't think you've thought about it enough. The fact that this happens doesn't mean the brain can't deteriorate. Also, how does this remove creativity? If anything, it promotes creativity, seeing as people are all creative in their own way, based on who they are. For example, a musician's style of musical writing will always be a unique style that you can often tell is that person's.
| Joman wrote: | | I recognize you belief. It's the religion that pervade communism. If you can believe that! Your bosses hope you obey them in thought and deed so they told you this lie and...well you had no choice but believe it. |
Explain to me how you came to this conclusion, it seems to make very little sense to me. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
