An Address From Hell(The First Shall Be Last)

Mindonfire · Alley Cat Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 188

An Address From Hell (The First Shall Be Last)

Character Descriptions

“Christian”2000: Rich very assured man who owned a very successful restaurant chain. Lived the good life. Was blessed with every material possession that one could ever imagine. Had a 6000 sq. ft. home on a gated estate. He had a fleet of fancy cars, and many vacation homes around the world. He wore the best designer clothes that money could buy . He also ate the best foods from his restaurant and other restaurant s from around the world. He was a “born again” “Christian” who is assured of his place in heaven.

*Most Respected African American* Depauper: Very poor individual who owned very little in regards to material possessions. Lived a wretched existence. Was not blessed with the fancy cars, vacation homes, and designer clothing as “Christian”2000. Considered himself fortunate if he was able to drum up two meals in one day. Used to spend most his time hanging around “Christian”2000’s home begging for a morsel to eat.

Father Abraham: Wise Patriarch of the one true faith.

Scene 1

We begin our story in hell were we see “Christian”2000. He has recently died during the tribulation period and has unexpectedly found himself in the torments of hell. Standing afar off across a great chasm we see *Most Respected African American* Depauper who had died 3.5 years earlier. He is in Abraham’s bosom alongside Father Abraham, enjoying some of the comforts that had eluded him during his lifetime.

“Christian”2000: (Grimacing and shouting) Hey there Father Abraham please have mercy and compassion on me and end my good friend *Most Respected African American* Depauper over here so that he may ladle me some water to cool my burning tongue. It is extremely hot over here and my body and mind is in extreme pain and anguish.

Father Abraham: (Shouting back): Son remember all of those good things that you received during your lifetime. Remember the air-conditioned homes, and your fancy cars. Remember your home entertainment center with the movie screen and surround sound . Remember eating three square meals a day plus snacks. Remember those fancy gourmet restaurants where they served you those meals. Remember drinking the finest wines and champagnes. Remember the designer clothes which adorned your body everyday. Remember the vacations in Europe, Africa, and the Caribbean. Remember on those trips and various others how you stayed at the finest and most expensive hotels. Remember receiving the best medical care that money could buy. Remember living so lavishly and extravagantly that even your dogs ate fine foods, wore fine clothing, received pedicures, and stayed at their own doggie hotels.

“Christian”2000: (Sheepishly) Yes.

Father Abraham: Now likewise do you remember all of those evil things that *Most Respected African American* Depauper received during his lifetime. Do you remember how he used to grovel at your gates begging for alms while you were on your way to take your dog in for those pedicures. Remember how he ate from your trash while your dog ate at your table. Remember how his body had become emaciated and his stomach distended because of lack of food and nutrition while your dog had to go on a diet because it was overweight. Remember the sores and flies that covered his body. Do you remember how his lips were dried and cracked from lack of water. Remember the thin and tattered clothing that hung aimlessly off of his body which did not give him any protection from the elements. In the winter he was bitten by the cold, and in the summer he was smitten by the heat. Remember how his feet were all swollen and blistered because he did not have any adequate footwear and no means of transportation.

“Christian”2000 (Sheepishly) Yes.

Father Abraham: Well now *Most Respected African American* Depauper is comforted and you are tormented. And besides even if I wanted to send him over there I couldn’t because there is a great gulf that is securely placed between us so that those who would try to cross from over here to you cannot. Neither can anybody that is on your side cross from over there to here.

“Christian”2000 (Pleading and Sobbing) Oh Father Abraham I implore you then to please send *Most Respected African American* Depauper to my father’s house to warn them. I have five brethren which I would like for him to witness to. I don‘t want them to make the same mistakes that I had made and end up in this place of torment. Oh I wish he would tell them that they are being lied to and have been led astray. The path that they are currently on looks good but it will only lead to death. Oh please let him go and tell them that I didn’t get raptured, hell is real, the Old Testament still stands(Matt 5:17), God did not change (Mal 3:6), sin is still sin, fornicators, adulterers, thieves, the effeminate, and extortioners still do not inherit the Kingdom of God (1Cor. 6:9-10), our gain does not translate to godliness (1Tim. 6:5),a simple confession does not guarantee heaven (James 2:20), and we are not as just and righteous as we had been led to believe (Eze.16:52). Oh please let him go so that he can tell them that they are in need of repentance.

Father Abraham: Well “Christian”2000 your brethren don’t need *Most Respected African American* Depauper to teach them that. Your brothers have the Old Testament and the prophets as their teachers and guides. Let them hear and heed them.

“Christian”2000: Oh no, Father Abraham , but if someone rises from the dead and goes to my father’s house they will believe and repent. They will definitely turn from their wicked ways if they see *Most Respected African American* Depauper raised from the dead.

Father Abraham: If your brothers can not hear and heed the teachings that are in the Old Testament and the prophets, then even if *Most Respected African American* Depauper were to be resurrected from the dead, he will not be able to persuade them to repent.

Matthew 19:30 But many [that are] first shall be last; and the last [shall be] first.

Matthew 3:1-2 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Ezekiel 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn [yourselves], and live ye.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

golfjack · Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2005 2:07 pm Post subject: reply

Very good post.

May God bless, golfjack

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

Repost of a post I made in 2003 on this board.

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:40 am Post subject:

Zathrus · Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:37 am Post subject:

Fake, pardon me if I'm slow to catch on, but I'm not sure how your 2003 post relates to the opening post of this thread, which was not about the law, but about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. Can you explain?

BTW, it's a disagreement, not a disagreeance.

Thanks.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!

2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

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Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

My response was to these parts of the text;

Zathrus · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:20 am Post subject:

FFT · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 11:23 am Post subject:

Which isn't suprising, given Mindonfire's "froggy" track record.
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When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.

Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to.

Mindonfire · Alley Cat Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 188

Zathrus · Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 10:01 am Post subject:

OK, a little about Luke 16:19-31, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.
In the context, Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees. He addresses them in verses 15-18. They had gotten offended by His parable of the unjust steward, which Jesus had told to condemn their practice of seeking justification through the works of the law, but explaining away the parts of the law that they found too hard to follow. They were the ones who broke "the least of these commandments and taught others to do so", therreby, like the unjust steward, decreasing their debt of sin before God. Or so they thought.

Keeping in mind that the parable is addressed to Jesus' generation, to whom God sent the Messiah, but who preferred rather to seek their own righteousness under the law, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a scathing reproof and warning to 1st century Israel.

The rich man is Israel, who'd been given the riches of the word of God. He was clothed in purple which denotes royalty. Israel was to be a royal priesthood.

Lazarus the beggar is the Gentiles, who starved for the truth of God.

When Lazarus died, he was carried to Abraham's bosom. To be in the bosom of Abraham was an expression meaning to be a son of Abraham. Jesus was telling these Pharisees that Israel would reject their Messiah, but that the Gentiles would become children of Abraham!!

How long was Lazarus, Jesus' friend who He raised from the dead, dead? 4 days.
How long were the Gentiles strangers to the kingdom of God and to His promises, spiritually dead? From Adam to Christ was 4000 years.
This is the reason for Jesus giving the name Lazarus to the poor man in His parable! The Pharisees He spoke this parable to probably knew about Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead!

In verse 31, Jesus delivers the knockout blow. Jesus' generation had so hardened themselves against what God was doing, even the raising back to life of Lazarus, and Jesus' own resurrection would not convince many of them. But God turned even that around for good, because "through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles" as Paul wrote in Romans 11. And that coming of salvation to the Gentiles is what the parable is about. This was Jesus' message in Matthew 21:43:
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Again, I don't see a glimpse into the afterlife of the unrighteous here, but a parable in which Jesus foretold the mystery of the gospel, by which all of us who are non-Jewish have become fellow-heirs o fthe kingdom with Israel, and a chilling warning of a very real judgement that was coming on those of Jesus' generation in their lifetimes.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!

2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451

Mindonfire · Alley Cat Joined: 24 Aug 2005 Posts: 188

Zathrus · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:13 pm Post subject:

Mindonfire,
Even if the parable was spoken to the disciples, which it may certainly have been, it was about the mentality that the Pharisees and others in 1st century Israel had.

I don't think Jesus made it a practice of telling parables merely to point out personality flaws. I suspect no one back then would have appreciated that any more than anyone today. What Jesus did often point out was the hypocrisy of those who trusted in their own righteousness. I think this parable was along those lines also. Israel in Jesus's day was secure in their delusion that they were right with God because of their religioin and their natural descent from Abraham, but the kingdom of God was about to be taken from them and given to others.

I think it's remarkable that you would read all the obvious allusions Jesus was making in the parable to life from the dead, those who'd previously been outcasts becoming sons of Abraham, and those who felt justified in calling Abraham their father receiving punishment, and yet insist the parable is about something else, something quite superficial.

I think it's even more remarkable that you believe you know something about my financial status. I'd be very interested in hearing where you got this information.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!

2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451

golfjack · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: esthalogy

Hi all, we have been going over this topic over and over. You know my position and I know yours. I don't think we can agree. There is no sense for me to go over and over what I believe is Biblical.

Mind: I have one question: Does a believer have to go through the Tribulation: I know an unbeliever will have too, whether Jew or gentile.I believe the Bible says that a remant (converted Jews) and a Multitude will be saved during the first three and a half years. Also, if one takes the Mark of the beast, He is doomed for all eternity. I do believe in the departure of the believers before the tribulation starts.

May God bless, golfjack

Star · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 1:43 pm Post subject:

Zath writes,

What Jesus did often point out was the hypocrisy of those who trusted in their own righteousness. I think this parable was along those lines also. Israel in Jesus's day was secure in their delusion that they were right with God because of their religioin and their natural descent from Abraham, but the kingdom of God was about

Star replies,

Amen Zath I see this too. In reality what things are counted as loss for the surpassing greatness of knowing Him save that which was by the law (riches and the glory of man)

Phil 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ

Heres a correction on the thoughts that of selling all you own here...

1Corinth 13:3 And though I """"bestow all my goods to feed the poor""", and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

His own "riches" (by the law) or the "riches of Christ"? (by faith)

Phil 3:9 And be found in him, """not having mine own righteousness""", which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

This means, if you think you have arrived by doing that which even Jesus said they should do (though not according to the light or mystery of what was truly meant) it profiteth nothing.

Heres a good example...

Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

The reality of his condition expresses a spiritual lack (naked= under the law, puffed up in what he thinks he knows, blind, can't see the truth wreteched as Paul saw he was under the law and miserable because theres no true joy of the Lord where he resides)Poor because your never truly possessing riches without Christ.

Truly He ""knowest not""

Zath writes

"through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles"

Star replies,

And one can fall from the GRACE of God. and their fall means RICHES (In Christ) for us, see? Its all spiritual Riches in Christ verses the fading glory of man (first covanant which had a glory of its own) which by far the ministry of Christ exceedeth in Glory and true riches in Christ.

Ever note the first was called the ministry of condemnation?

This is pretty kool... The power of life and death are in the tongue, James says the tongues a fire. Itself set on fire of hell itself right? So think about this... The rich man in hell is he who rejected the grace of God went back into the ministry of condemnation and now is in torment OF THIS FLAME... What flame? THE TONGUE !!! Its not a cup of COLD WATER HE NEEDS TO COOL IT I thought Wow! Is that not true? Jesus said condemn not and you will not be condemned? Ministry of condemnation= Tongue= Fire= Tormented of THIS FLAME?? Makes so much sense to me.
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

Zathrus · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject:

Amen, Star! That Laodicean church wasn't being reproved by the Lord for being wealthy! THey may have been poor as church mice for all we know! They were rich in good works, and legalistic about it - their works were what they put their trust in.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!

2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451