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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2005 1:16 pm Post subject: "Ex-Gay" "Ministry" Ordered Closed in TN |
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News Report:
'Ex-Gay Ministry' Ordered Closed
by The Associated Press
Posted: September 20, 2005 3:00 pm ET
(Nashville, Tennessee) The Tennessee Department of Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities has ordered the closing of what it calls two unlicensed personal care facilities run by a Christian group that claims to counsel gays to give up homosexuality.
The state inspected two facilities in Memphis on Aug. 19 and determined Love In Action International Inc. was providing housing, meals and personal care for mentally ill patients without a license, according to a subsequent letter to the organization from the Department of Mental Health.
The department gave Love In Action until Sept. 23 to cease operation of the facilities and apply for a state license.
Love In Action spokesman Gerard Wellman declined to answer questions about the state's allegations.
"We will be commenting when the time is right," or when the case is past its initial stage, Wellman said.
Lawyer Nathan Kellum responded to the state on Sept. 14 with a letter acknowledging Love In Action had received the state's notice and promising to respond fully by Sept. 23.
"The issue is these being supportive care facilities," state spokeswoman Lola Potter said Monday. "Supportive care must be licensed."
Former Love In Action client Peterson Toscano said Monday that a house manager for the program told him one of the manager's responsibilities was dispensing drugs that had been prescribed for participants.
"He told me that it was to keep people from misusing the drugs," said Toscano, who is now a writer and performer living in Hartford, Conn.
Under state regulations, facilities that dispense medication to patients require a license.
The Love In Action facilities were still in operation Monday, Potter said.
If the organization were to continue operating the facilities past the Sept. 23 deadline, it would face criminal penalties that include fines of up to $500 and six months in jail for each day the facilities are determined to be in violation of state laws, Potter said.
The Department of Mental Health's current action is not the first time Love In Action has drawn the state's attention.
Earlier this year the Department of Children's Services investigated a child abuse complaint against Love In Action that was found to be unsubstantiated. (story) The complaint stemmed from a Web logger going by the name of "Zach" who said his parents were sending him to a religious organization that would try to convert him to heterosexuality. (story)
The teen identified himself as a 16-year-old from Bartlett, Tenn., and said his parents "tell me that there is something psychologically wrong with me. ... I'm a big screwup to them, who isn't on the path God wants me to be on. So I'm sitting here in tears ... and I can't help it."
In August the Department of Health determined the group did not need to be licensed as a drug and alcohol treatment program.
John Smid, Love In Action's executive director, said then that his group does not provide psychological, drug or alcohol counseling, but seeks to help people overcome sexual problems through a stronger Christian faith.
Counseling that would be regulated by the state is "really not our focus," he said.
Love In Action's work, particularly with teenagers, has drawn protests from gay rights advocates.
***
My comments: excellent turn of events. This outfit was engaging in fraud and the volunteer State authorities acted properly. God Bless Tennessee!
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
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Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 22, 2005 6:05 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | This outfit was engaging in fraud |
Really? How so?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | This outfit was engaging in fraud |
Really? How so? |
Sexual orientation cannot be changed through bullying, nor should such be attempted.
There's an update to this story, I will find it and post it.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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Here's the Update:
'Ex-Gay' Facility Gets Reprieve
by 365Gay.com Newscenter Staff
Posted: September 23, 2005 8:00 am ET
(Nashville, Tennessee) The Tennessee Department of Mental Health and Developmental Disabilities has backed down on an order closing a facility that claims to turn gays straight.
The department now is giving the Love In Action facility an additional week to apply for a license or the order will be carried out.
The state contends the group needs a license for the services the group claims to provide and gave it until September 23 to comply. (story) Love In Action Executive Director John Smid said the organization is trying to meet the state's requirements. but refused to go in any details.
The state inspected two facilities in Memphis on Aug. 19 and determined Love In Action was providing housing, meals and personal care for mentally ill patients without a license.
If convicted of operating without a license Love In Action would face criminal penalties that include fines of up to $500 and six months in jail for each day the facilities are determined to be in violation of state laws..
The Department of Mental Health's current action is not the first time Love In Action has drawn the state's attention.
Earlier this year the Department of Children's Services investigated a child abuse complaint against Love In Action that was found to be unsubstantiated. (story) The complaint stemmed from a Web logger going by the name of "Zach" who said his parents were sending him to a religious organization that would try to convert him to heterosexuality. (story)
The teen identified himself as a 16-year-old from Bartlett, Tenn., and said his parents "tell me that there is something psychologically wrong with me. ... I'm a big screwup to them, who isn't on the path God wants me to be on. So I'm sitting here in tears ... and I can't help it."
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:48 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Sexual orientation cannot be changed through bullying, nor should such be attempted. |
I'm sorry, I don't understand. You alleged the outfit was engaged in fraud and I asked how so?
Are you suggesting that because you do not ascribe to a certain counseling technique that it necessarily constitutes the commission of fraud?
So those in psychiatry who ascribe to Jungian techniques rightly assert that Freudian practitioners are engaged in fraud, or visa versa?
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Kris
Sea Monkey
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Okla.
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| Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:36 am Post subject: |
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The devil will do anything to tear down ministries that teach the truth and are setting those who want freedom, free from the lies of this world and the devil.
Look how the report said that the claims from the the 16 year old were "unsubstantiated", this leaves room in minds of those reading these stories that the claims might still be true when most likely they were "false".
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 10:54 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | Sexual orientation cannot be changed through bullying, nor should such be attempted. |
I'm sorry, I don't understand. You alleged the outfit was engaged in fraud and I asked how so?
Are you suggesting that because you do not ascribe to a certain counseling technique that it necessarily constitutes the commission of fraud?
So those in psychiatry who ascribe to Jungian techniques rightly assert that Freudian practitioners are engaged in fraud, or visa versa? |
I wouldn't go so far. Sexual Orientation Repairitive Therapy has always been considered unethical because (1) it tries to do something it should not and (2) cannot. The latter amounts to fraud, the former is wrong morally though not legally at this time.
Of course, I would say plastic surgeons who promise in ads to reduce women from a size 10 to a size 4 are also unethical, though not fraudulent, because undoubtedly they can fulfill their promise. They just shouldn't.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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Kris
Sea Monkey
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Posts: 12
Location: Okla.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Da Blonde Bombshell wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | Sexual orientation cannot be changed through bullying, nor should such be attempted. |
I'm sorry, I don't understand. You alleged the outfit was engaged in fraud and I asked how so?
Are you suggesting that because you do not ascribe to a certain counseling technique that it necessarily constitutes the commission of fraud?
So those in psychiatry who ascribe to Jungian techniques rightly assert that Freudian practitioners are engaged in fraud, or visa versa? |
I wouldn't go so far. Sexual Orientation Repairitive Therapy has always been considered unethical because (1) it tries to do something it should not and (2) cannot. The latter amounts to fraud, the former is wrong morally though not legally at this time.
Of course, I would say plastic surgeons who promise in ads to reduce women from a size 10 to a size 4 are also unethical, though not fraudulent, because undoubtedly they can fulfill their promise. They just shouldn't. |
Your statements here prove that you are totally ignorant of what is true. Although your right about that our sexual orientation cannot be changed. We are born male or female. God says in Genesis He created us male and female, it can't get any more plainer than that. Sexual attractions are determined by our enviroment and/or how we respond to emotional issues during childhood. This is what these Christian ministries teach to help those who come to them.
Name one Christian ministry that are a part of Exodus Int. that calls what they are doing "Sexual Orientation Repairitive Therapy" and name one that use "bullying techiques". This is a secular term that secular therapist may use.
Bombshell why is this such a hot button issue with you?
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:28 am Post subject: |
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| Kris wrote: | | Your statements here prove that you are totally ignorant of what is true. |
Please elaborate.
| Quote: | | Although your right about that our sexual orientation cannot be changed. We are born male or female. God says in Genesis He created us male and female, it can't get any more plainer than that. |
Yes, gender exists, but that proves nothing regarding this issue. With as much relevance, you could say She also created us darkhaired, blonde, and redheaded, too.
| Quote: | | Sexual attractions are determined by our enviroment and/or how we respond to emotional issues during childhood. This is what these Christian ministries teach to help those who come to them. |
Then they're teaching discredited Freudianism which has been outdated since about 1955. Some homophobes like Jim Dobson stubbornly hang onto such things that their colleagues have long since discarded.
| Quote: | | Name one Christian ministry that are a part of Exodus Int. that calls what they are doing "Sexual Orientation Repairitive Therapy" and name one that use "bullying techiques". This is a secular term that secular therapist may use. |
Indeed it is. The divide between secular and "Christian" therapy is largely artificial if the "Christian" practitioners are ethical, and many are. However Exodus and NARTH and so forth are not. Their entire treatment planning apparatus consists of what I've described.
| Quote: | | Bombshell why is this such a hot button issue with you? |
Hm, do you have personal questions? I could ask you the same thing. Do you know Beth Stroud? I'm not her, just a fan of hers.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Some homophobes like Jim Dobson |
Of course you have some sort of evidence or proof that Dr. Dobson is homophobic? Unless of course you are just throwing around convenient terminology in an effort to discredit someone without true understanding or appreciation for what that terminology really means.
| Quote: | ho·mo·pho·bi·a ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hm-fb-)
n.
Fear of or contempt for lesbians and gay men.
Behavior based on such a feeling. |
I would say you need to demonstrate Dr. Dobson fears homosexuals. Or would have to demonstrate that he has contempt for them.
From my experience he speaks to the nature of homosexuality as being against scripture and God - while I may not believe his is correct in his stand that being gay is a sin (I've been pretty clear that being homosexual is not sinful, but homosexual activity is), I could not support the suggestion that he is contemptuous of them.
Here's the crux of your argument regarding 'theraputic' approaches to curing homosexuality (as I understand your view): You feel that homosexuality is genetic, or part of a person's make up or physiological state of being, and as such, you condemn those who feel that homosexuality is an environmental, or learned, behavior. The evidence is inconclusive on both fronts, as there is evidence that there may be physiological causes for homosexuality, but there is equally as much evidence that it is an environmental condition. Many would say that homosexuality could be either and there exists no way to determine which is which.
But the truth of the matter is that scripturally, spiritually, it doesn't matter. We are a corrupted manifestation of our original creation, if homosexuality was a physiological condition, it does not excuse homosexual activity. There are many genetic predispositions which when acted upon result in unacceptable behavior, as a society we do not excuse that behavior just because of physical inclinations. As a biblical society (meaning not the secular world), we do not teach that it is okay to 'be who you are' if that is contrary to scripture.
So many of the Faith based therapies are designed to teach those who may or may not be physiologically inclined to be homosexual to cease acting on that physiological urge. They are taught to conform to that which was originally intended in God's creation. You may view that as cruel, but it is no less cruel that using therputic methods to teach a sociopath to behave against his/her natue to conform to social norms.
On a side note, when Christ fills one's life, the 'need' to act out on many urges diminishes significantly. In many cases it disappears almost completely.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 11:51 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Of course you have some sort of evidence or proof that Dr. Dobson is homophobic? |
Most assuredly. His opinions on such are based on outdated and discredited theories and his publications are chock-full of pronouncements dripping with ignorance, hatred, and disinformation. The business about "strong mothers and weak fathers" "causing" homosexuality is present in Bringing Up Boys as well as elsewhere in his publications catalog.
| Quote: | | Unless of course you are just throwing around convenient terminology in an effort to discredit someone without true understanding or appreciation for what that terminology really means. |
Certainly not, I know whereof I speak.
| Quote: | | I would say you need to demonstrate Dr. Dobson fears homosexuals. Or would have to demonstrate that he has contempt for them. |
It is evident in every single pronouncement on the subject, though perhaps his fundraising letter are the best source of raw, red meat thrown to the target audience of hatemongers among his base.
| Quote: | | From my experience he speaks to the nature of homosexuality as being against scripture and God - while I may not believe his is correct in his stand that being gay is a sin (I've been pretty clear that being homosexual is not sinful, but homosexual activity is), I could not support the suggestion that he is contemptuous of them. |
Lying about a group of people knowingly would appear to be strongly indicative of contempt. This is precisely what he does. He present long-discredited theories of "origins" of homosexuality (completely ignoring origins of heterosexuality) and rails against a paranoid vision reffered to as "the gay agenda" to extremists. Apparently to such a person with their heart blackened by hate, to desire to be treated as a person of dignity and worth is a sinister matter. The other way in which he demonstrates contempt for LGBTs is by advococy of policies specificially designed to hurt them and their families. that's contempt, Friend, no two ways about it.
| Quote: | | Here's the crux of your argument regarding 'theraputic' approaches to curing homosexuality (as I understand your view): You feel that homosexuality is genetic, or part of a person's make up or physiological state of being, and as such, you condemn those who feel that homosexuality is an environmental, or learned, behavior. |
I condemn no one. Science, however, condems their position here.
| Quote: | | The evidence is inconclusive on both fronts, as there is evidence that there may be physiological causes for homosexuality, but there is equally as much evidence that it is an environmental condition. Many would say that homosexuality could be either and there exists no way to determine which is which. |
Then they would be wrong.
The problem is the search for causes of minority sexual orientations is doomed to failure because the very nature of the inquiry begs the question. Homosexuality is no more "caused" by anything in particular than heterosexuality is. It is merely what a person is among other things and hardly remarkable except pursuit of justice requires overcoming bigotry by those devoted to superstitions about it.
| Quote: | | But the truth of the matter is that scripturally, spiritually, it doesn't matter. We are a corrupted manifestation of our original creation, if homosexuality was a physiological condition, it does not excuse homosexual activity. There are many genetic predispositions which when acted upon result in unacceptable behavior, as a society we do not excuse that behavior just because of physical inclinations. As a biblical society (meaning not the secular world), we do not teach that it is okay to 'be who you are' if that is contrary to scripture. |
Then, in this matter, that is irrelevant.
| Quote: | | So many of the Faith based therapies are designed to teach those who may or may not be physiologically inclined to be homosexual to cease acting on that physiological urge. They are taught to conform to that which was originally intended in God's creation. You may view that as cruel, but it is no less cruel that using therputic methods to teach a sociopath to behave against his/her natue to conform to social norms. |
Which clearly states exactly why such is indeed an unethical procedure. It advocates a form of cultural genocide that must be resisted by all who pursue justice.
| Quote: | | On a side note, when Christ fills one's life, the 'need' to act out on many urges diminishes significantly. In many cases it disappears almost completely. |
True, but 100% off topic.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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Once more you are long on opinion and short on fact.
| Quote: | | his publications are chock-full of pronouncements dripping with ignorance, hatred, and disinformation. |
Show me. I personally have not seen him express hatred. The ignorance you claim seems to be raised because of a different POV. You view it one way and since he disagrees with that POV, you assert ignorance. The problem is that you have nothing more to back up your POV than does the opposing view.
| Quote: | | The business about "strong mothers and weak fathers" "causing" homosexuality is present in Bringing Up Boys as well as elsewhere in his publications catalog. |
Sorry. There are volumes upon volumes of psychiatric, psychological, sociological studies and theories that support his assertions. Just as there are as many which oppose it.
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It is evident in every single pronouncement on the subject, |
I disagree. I think in your mind you view any opinion that differs from your in regards to homosexuality constitutes fear, hate, or contempt.
| Quote: | | Lying about a group of people knowingly would appear to be strongly indicative of contempt. This is precisely what he does. |
A strong, and completely unsupported accusation.
| Quote: | | He present long-discredited theories of "origins" of homosexuality (completely ignoring origins of heterosexuality) |
Discredited? Hardly, the scholarship is still divided with each side claiming the other is wrong. Hardly proof that one side is right or wrong.
| Quote: | | I condemn no one. Science, however, condems their position here. |
Only the science you choose to accept. And since 50% of the science agrees with you and 50% disagrees, it is hardly surprising that you only accept the agreeable 50%.
| Quote: | | True, but 100% off topic. |
Hardly. This is the cornerstone of Christian ministries and therapies devoted to freeing those held captive by homosexual activity, as well as other addictions and obsessions. I would say it is pretty much on topic and the core of the whole discussion, simply because with Christ at the center of one's life, your whole argument is moot.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Da Blonde Bombshell
Cobra
Joined: 31 Jan 2003
Posts: 461
Location: Brooklyn NY (formerly TX)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Once more you are long on opinion and short on fact.
| Quote: | | his publications are chock-full of pronouncements dripping with ignorance, hatred, and disinformation. |
Show me. I personally have not seen him express hatred. The ignorance you claim seems to be raised because of a different POV. You view it one way and since he disagrees with that POV, you assert ignorance. The problem is that you have nothing more to back up your POV than does the opposing view.
| Quote: | | The business about "strong mothers and weak fathers" "causing" homosexuality is present in Bringing Up Boys as well as elsewhere in his publications catalog. |
Sorry. There are volumes upon volumes of psychiatric, psychological, sociological studies and theories that support his assertions. Just as there are as many which oppose it.
| Quote: |
It is evident in every single pronouncement on the subject, |
I disagree. I think in your mind you view any opinion that differs from your in regards to homosexuality constitutes fear, hate, or contempt.
| Quote: | | Lying about a group of people knowingly would appear to be strongly indicative of contempt. This is precisely what he does. |
A strong, and completely unsupported accusation.
| Quote: | | He present long-discredited theories of "origins" of homosexuality (completely ignoring origins of heterosexuality) |
Discredited? Hardly, the scholarship is still divided with each side claiming the other is wrong. Hardly proof that one side is right or wrong.
| Quote: | | I condemn no one. Science, however, condems their position here. |
Only the science you choose to accept. And since 50% of the science agrees with you and 50% disagrees, it is hardly surprising that you only accept the agreeable 50%.
| Quote: | | True, but 100% off topic. |
Hardly. This is the cornerstone of Christian ministries and therapies devoted to freeing those held captive by homosexual activity, as well as other addictions and obsessions. I would say it is pretty much on topic and the core of the whole discussion, simply because with Christ at the center of one's life, your whole argument is moot. |
Your argument is limited to the "50% is right, 50% is wrong" stuff on all but the last, which is simply not so. It is worse than creation versus evolution, because we have some hard science here. the fact is among reliable scholars Dobson and his fellow travelers' views have long since been discredited.
The last assertion is again merely an attempt to mischaracterize what homosexuality is. It is many things, but it is not in any form an addiction or an obsession. To say so is most unfortunate. Shame.
_________________
"Count it all joy, my brethren, when you meet various trials." (James 1:2)
"The tendency to claim God as an ally for our partisan values and ends is the source of all religious fanaticism." -Reinhold Niebuhr |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6886
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 2:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Your argument is limited to the "50% is right, 50% is wrong" stuff on all but the last, which is simply not so. It is worse than creation versus evolution, because we have some hard science here. the fact is among reliable scholars Dobson and his fellow travelers' views have long since been discredited. |
There is equally compelling evidence supporting Dobson's view that homosexuality is environmental (for lack of a less lengthy term).
The truth is, the best science can offer at the moment is that is seems there is some indication that homosexuality may be physiological and some homosexuality may be environmental. Numerous studies for both camps have shown hard evidence in support of thier view, and even more studies have demonstrated that it is likely it can be either or both causes.
| Quote: | | The last assertion is again merely an attempt to mischaracterize what homosexuality is. It is many things, but it is not in any form an addiction or an obsession. To say so is most unfortunate. Shame |
Sorry no. It has nothing to do with the characterization of homosexuality and everything to do with the approaches of treatment. My point was, and is, that the treatments used are the same used for addictions and obsessions, and they have often proven most effective. I will grant however that this is not always the case, but sometime the problem is solved, and sometimes it isn't.
I think the real distraction is that ardent homosexuals get all upset when one denounces their lifestyle choice and chooses a different path, and please do not mistake a lifestyle choice for an orientation, they are not the same.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6067
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | I think the real distraction is that ardent homosexuals get all upset when one denounces their lifestyle choice and chooses a different path, and please do not mistake a lifestyle choice for an orientation, they are not the same. |
I'm curious, how often do you think this occurs?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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