Abraham

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 5:13 am Post subject: Abraham

Gn:26:5: Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Abraham is before Moses yes?

So which commandments and statues and laws are these?

anybody...

Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

The same laws and statutes ... that God gave Noah, Lamech ( his father ),
Adam ( Lamech's ancestor ) and Adams sons Cain and Abel ( the same Cain who failed to meet the standard sacrificial offering of the time and Abel, the brother whom Cain slew ).

God has always had a witness and commandments for man to keep.

The gift is meant to remain sanctified.

thunder
_________________
Submit to God in Christ

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

It's true that Abraham was before Moses. but Abraham did everything that God asked him to do from leaving his kinsmen and country to Issac and everything inbetween. In Genesis chapter 17 God established a Covenant with Abraham, and that covenent was circumcision.

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 1:09 pm Post subject:

Jn:7:22: Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
Jn:7:23: If a man on the sabbath day receive circumcision, that the law of Moses should not be broken; are ye angry at me, because I have made a man every whit whole on the sabbath day?

Rom:2:25: For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.

Rom:2:26: Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

Rom:3:1: What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
Rom:3:2: Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

Rom:3:3: For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

Rom:15:8: Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

1Cor:7:19: Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Gn:17:14: And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Bridget work with me here...

Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

The early followers of Christ understood they'd not get a very broad following of gentiles if they demanded they'd mutilate their penises, so they figured out a way to circumvent the requirement of circumcision.

Anyway, if God didn't want us to have a foreskin, why did he give us one to start with?
(Yes, I'm absolutley against penile mutilation of infant boys, just as I'm completley against female genital mutilation)

Fake
_________________
I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.

“If there is a God, atheism must seem to Him as less of an insult than religion.”

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

I don't blame you Fake.

I'm sure that I, eight days after my birth, I attempted to repell the MD coming at me with a scapel in his / her hand and a gleam in their eye.

As an adult I understand the foreskin invites a higher level of dirt, lint, smell and other negative virtues, obviously, and see the advantage for boys to be clipped.

Religiously, I am a Christian and not a Jew, and therefore see the written Word as being holy ( Holy Bible ) including Paul's statement that," neither circumcision or uncircumcision ..."

The blood of Christ either covers you or does not cover you.

Just like the lambs blood was either applied as required or was not. That fact decided who was sanctified and who was not. Who was allowed to live and who was not.

Once we are under the blood of Christ, we are no longer under the law or obligated to follow the intricate rules and instructions of the law.

I choose Christ, am chosen of Him and am complete in Him.

If you choose to try and do both then you have rejected Christ.

When a person chooses Christ, he has the Father too. He who chooses the Father, but chooses to disrespect the Son ( Christ ) will be judged by the law.

People failed to keep the OT law, before Christ, which required God to provide a new covenant, based on better promises, to cover the weakness of the flesh.

We are born with weak flesh, sinful flesh, and Christ is our only sure hope, for jews and for rest.

Walking with God in Christ is sanctified by God ( His own blood ).

I recommend that all people give God credit for His acts in and through Jesus Christ.

thunder
_________________
Submit to God in Christ

FFT · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:15 am Post subject:

Zathrus · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 6:24 am Post subject: Re: Abraham

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 7:23 am Post subject:

Gn:26:34: And Esau was forty years old when he took to wife Judith the daughter of Beeri the Hittite, and Bashemath the daughter of Elon the Hittite:
Gn:26:35: Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah.

why grief of mind?

Gn:27:46: And Rebekah said to Isaac, I am weary of my life because of the daughters of Heth: if Jacob take a wife of the daughters of Heth, such as these which are of the daughters of the land, what good shall my life do me?

Dt:7:1: When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;
Dt:7:2: And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:
Dt:7:3: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.
Dt:7:4: For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Did Rebekah and Isaac already know?

2Sm:11:3: And David sent and enquired after the woman. And one said, Is not this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam, the wife of Uriah the Hittite?
2Sm:11:4: And David sent messengers, and took her; and she came in unto him, and he lay with her; for she was purified from her uncleanness: and she returned unto her house.
2Sm:11:5: And the woman conceived, and sent and told David, and said, I am with child.
2Sm:11:26: And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband.
2Sm:11:27: And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord.
2Sm:12:9: Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the Lord, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sm:12:10: Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.

2Sm:12:14: Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sm:12:15: And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sm:12:16: David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
2Sm:12:17: And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
2Sm:12:18: And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
2Sm:12:19: But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
2Sm:12:20: Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
2Sm:12:21: Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
2Sm:12:22: And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Sm:12:23: But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.

Mt:9:14: Then came to him the disciples of John, saying, Why do we and the Pharisees fast oft, but thy disciples fast not?
Mt:9:15: And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast.

Rv:3:11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

Is this saying.. hold that fast, or hold on tight?

Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

If there was ... no law for Cain and Abel to keep, i.e., a meat offering ( forcing man to kill animals and draw blood, like Cain later drew the blood of his brother Abel ) then why did The Lord reject the offering of Cain?

From the time that Adam and Eve fell into sin, the food to eat was still fruit and grain ( seed bearing plants ).

From Genisis 1:27-31 there is no mention for man to," kill and eat," living beings roaming the earth.

Later, when Adam and Eve were captured by sin, Abel brought a blood offering while Cain a grain offering.

The meat offering was accepted, the grain offering rejected.

Could it be that when Adam and Eve were captured by sin, judged, convicted and sentanced to expulsion from the garden, where the tree of life flourished, that with the sentance, the people were also commanded to," kill at eat," as part of the sentance that was mentioned later at the failed blood offering of Cain?

Perhaps Cain refused to kill and eat the flesh of animals and showed his contempt for the command by not only being vegetarian but also by refusing to participate in the blood offering to God ( showing his true colors and personality ).

Later, when Cains other than blood offering was refused, in anger he made a blood offering using his own brother to kill," if you want blood, heres some human blood for you." Total speculation of course.

The entire OT Law used blood offerings as a constant reminder to Israel that the blood of innocent animals was required as a substitute for their own blood, to cover for their sins. Another implication that a blood offering was also required at the Cain / Abel offering, that had carried over to the implementation of the law through Moses, then later again through Christ.

The blood of Abel may have cried out to God," my blood is the result of sin and the law, later the blood of Christ will finish that law." Again, speculation.

Was there a blood offering requirement for Cain and Abel to keep?

If not then God rejected Cains offering based on Cains unsubmitted state of mind, attitude and character. Ref. Hebrews 11:4, 1 John 3:12, Jude 11

thunder
_________________
Submit to God in Christ

lone-traveler · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 9:12 am Post subject:

Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary
Balaam: the ancient of the people; the destruction of the people
Easton's Bible Dictionary
Balaam lord of the people; foreigner or glutton, as interpreted by others, the son of Beor, was a man of some rank among the Midianites ( Num 31:8; Num 31:16). He resided at Pethor ( Deu 23:4), in Mesopotamia ( Num 23:7). It is evident that though dwelling among idolaters he had some knowledge of the true God; and was held in such reputation that it was supposed that he whom he blessed was blessed, and he whom he cursed was cursed. When the Israelites were encamped on the plains of Moab, on the east of Jordan, by Jericho, Balak sent for Balaam "from Aram, out of the mountains of the east," to curse them; but by the remarkable interposition of God he was utterly unable to fulfil Balak's wish, however desirous he was to do so. The apostle Peter refers ( 2Pe 2:15,16) to this as an historical event. In Mic 6:5 reference also is made to the relations between Balaam and Balak. Though Balaam could not curse Israel, yet he suggested a mode by which the divine displeasure might be caused to descend upon them ( In Num 25). In a battle between Israel and the Midianites ( q.v.) Balaam was slain while fighting on the side of Balak ( Num 31:8).

The "doctrine of Balaam" is spoken of in Rev 2:14, in allusion to the fact that it was through the teaching of Balaam that Balak learned the way by which the Israelites might be led into sin. ( See NICOLAITANES T0002725.) Balaam was constrained to utter prophecies regarding the future of Israel of wonderful magnificence and beauty of expression ( Num 24:5-9,17).

Jude:1:11: Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

1Jn:3:12: Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Heb:11:4: By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

Gn:4:1: And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
Gn:4:2: And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Gn:4:3: And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
Gn:4:4: And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gn:4:5: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gn:4:6: And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
Gn:4:7: If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Neh:10:34: And we cast the lots among the priests, the Levites, and the people, for the wood offering, to bring it into the house of our God, after the houses of our fathers, at times appointed year by year, to burn upon the altar of the Lord our God, as it is written in the law:
Neh:10:35: And to bring the firstfruits of our ground, and the firstfruits of all fruit of all trees, year by year, unto the house of the Lord:
Neh:10:36: Also the firstborn of our sons, and of our cattle, as it is written in the law, and the firstlings of our herds and of our flocks, to bring to the house of our God, unto the priests that minister in the house of our God:
Neh:10:37: And that we should bring the firstfruits of our dough, and our offerings, and the fruit of all manner of trees, of wine and of oil, unto the priests, to the chambers of the house of our God; and the tithes of our ground unto the Levites, that the same Levites might have the tithes in all the cities of our tillage.

I see 2 things here..

1- Cain didn't bring the firstfruits of the ground. just fruit.

2- The firstborn Son is to be offered. God didn't like what was being offered.

Ex:22:29: Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

Dt:21:18: If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
Dt:21:19: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
Dt:21:20: And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
Dt:21:21: And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Gn:4:14: Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
Gn:4:15: And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Gn:4:17: And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.

Eastons Bible Dictionary:
Cain:

Doomed to be a wanderer and a fugitive in the earth, he went forth into the "land of Nod", i.e., the land of "exile", which is said to have been in the "east of Eden," and there he built a city, the first we read of, and called it after his son's name, Enoch. His descendants are enumerated to the sixth generation. They gradually degenerated in their moral and spiritual condition till they became wholly corrupt before God. This corruption prevailed, and at length the Deluge was sent by God to prevent the final triumph of evil.

Jb:1:6: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
Jb:1:7: And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Gn:4:3: And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
Gn:4:4: And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Gn:4:5: But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.

When the Israelites were encamped on the plains of Moab, on the east of Jordan, by Jericho, Balak sent for Balaam "from Aram, out of the mountains of the east," to curse them; but by the remarkable interposition of God he was utterly unable to fulfil Balak's wish, however desirous he was to do so.

And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Isn't that interesting?....

Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

The year on the Jewish calendar is 5765, which means the Jewish people have counted the years from their beginning of written history until today. Your original question Lonewolf was this:
Abraham is before Moses yes?

So which commandments and statues and laws are these?

anybody...

I thought you were asking if Abraham lived before Moses what commandments did he follow.
My answer was he followed everything God asked him to do. The Law or the ten commandments had not as yet been received by Moses. Genesis chapter 17 also spoke of the Covenant of circumcisn God gave to Abraham and his descendents.

Now you are skipping over to the New Testament which has nothing to do with what went on over 3000 years before. Abraham was the Patriarch of the Jewish people. Genesis was only the beginning of God bringing forth His people and setting up the things He wanted them to know. The Old Testament is the history of God's dealing with His people. The New Testament is the continuation of God's dealing with His people through His Son Jesus Christ. I know this is not what churchs teach today, they teach a combination of Mysticism, Philosophy and throw in a little of Christs teachings for good measure. Jesus was not a mystical, philosophical figure. He was a Jew from the line of David as prophised in the Old Testement. He was born because of the sins of the Jewish people as indicated in the Old Testament. He was the sacrifice God gave the Jews to redemn them from their many sins of old, but in so doing He saves all who believe in Him.
So what is it you want to know about Abraham? He lived approximately 3765 years before the birth of Christ. Moses was not yet born. The jews had not entered Eygpt yet or had they been freed. Their sins had yet to be seen by God. The book of Amos tells the story in the Old Testament better then I can.

Zathrus · Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 12:09 pm Post subject:

Cain and Abel's sacrifices have been brought up. Let me share with you something the Lord showed me about that.
From 1 John 3:

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

thunder · Lion King Joined: 13 Sep 2003 Posts: 1222

Zathrus ... if your message concerning Cain " doing too much " is accurate, then many people who do more than their share within the Christian Church are in danger of being rejected by God and Christ for digging in and working hard to overcome, both for them self and for those who cannot, and for making a more sure commitment to put behind them a lifestyle ruled by humanism and selfishness, the enemy of faith.

The same enemy faced Christ when meeting His opponent on the temple peak, in the wilderness and who met John the baptist on the River Jordan.

Had John folded his tent and declined to continue his effort to be the prophet who preseded Christ, the fore runner if you will, then that work would have gone undone.

Thankfully he, and other men and women of God, were willing to take the needed next step to further their work and lead others to do the same.

I like the idea of Cains humanism getting in the way of his faith but, come on, being rejected by God for making oatmeal cookies? flapjacks? not because a blood offering was expected but because the cookies and pancakes were too good? over the top?

If humanism is going to be called sin, let it be for one of the sins named by Moses in the law, John at Jordan, Paul, Peter, James ... but not for being a good cook?

thunder
_________________
Submit to God in Christ