Eschatology discussion - Preterism/Dispensationalism

Rosered · Alley Cat Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 179

Hi I have always loved this and believe this

Jhn 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son'' quickeneth ''whom he will.

zoopoieo {dzo-op-oy-eh'-o}

to produce alive, begat or bear living young

to cause to live, make alive, give life

by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

to restore to life

to give increase of life: thus of physical life

of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing

and seeing Jesus command
Mat 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)

1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Act 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

Hbr 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

to me its just exciting to Belive in the((( Power of God))) and his Christs comming and resurecting us into Himself ...

love in Him , rose
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Jesus is the reward !

MoJo · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:15 am Post subject:

As one who by necessity understood most what the gospel message was, why would Paul say

Phil 3:10: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
11: If by any means (((I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.)))
Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

was he just being modest or did he really not know whether he had attained or not?

according to what I think you guys are saying, should Paul not have been well aware that he had already been resurrected in Christ? Christ was in Paul, wasn't he? Paul had received of the Holy Spirit. And why would he admonish those who were saying the resurrection had already passed?

Are you equating Christ in you, the hope in you, as being the same thing as resurrection?

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Star · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:16 am Post subject:

MoJo writes,

Col 1:27... Christ in you, the hope of glory:

What is the hope (((of))) glory?

And at what point does hope turn into attained?

Star writes,

The Hope IS HIM 100% just HIM APPEARING and the beholding of His glory that we be changed, going from "glory unto glory" Peter interprets what was going on inside them as the MORE SURE WORD. THAT was unspeakable in Joy and full of Glory. The defining factor of what they were receiving was a fountain of pure joy within them. JOY MADE FULL in the Presence of Christ (who is the Glory of God) and the Face of the Father.

2Thes 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, """to the obtaining of the glory""" of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Peter 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. (this is unlike the glory of man which falleth away and vanishes under the OC but that which does not fade away In Christ)

1Peter 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, WHEN his """"glory shall be revealed"""", ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

2 Titus 2:10 that they may also """obtain the salvation""" which is in Christ Jesus """with eternal glory""" (Peter showed them receivng it in themselves)

Col 3:4 When Christ, [who is] our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

1Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with """"joy unspeakable and full of glory""""

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the """"presence of his glory"""" with """"exceeding joy"""

2Corinth 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.

John 11:40 Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest SEE the glory of God?

I just love it, He is so true ! Very Happy

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God love ya In Him Starlaa

Star · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:48 am Post subject:

18For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
What glory was in them? Jesus Christ! They awaited a manifestation of the fullness of Christ in them.

Star replies,

Wahoooo Zath amen bro, what a precious life in Christ we are given ! If its this awesome now I have no concept of how much more awesome He can become to me... none whatsoever ! I'm thinking "wow" He is awesome as of NOW, my goodness if what awaits !? lol! Bless His name always Smile

2Cor 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our """outward man perish""" yet the """"inward [man] is renewed day by day"""

2Cor 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but """for a moment""", worketh for us a far more EXCEEDING [and] eternal weight of glory;

2Cor 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen [are] temporal; but the things which are not seen [are] eternal.

MoJo,

Paul shows he finishes his course while here...

1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:

Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, """""considering the end of [their] conversation.""""

2Titus 2:14 I have fought a good fight, I have FINISHED MY COURSE, I have kept the faith:

Phil 1:6 That the communication of thy faith may BECOME EFFECTUAL """"by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you""""" ((( in Christ Jesus )))

I don't know bout you but if someone would have told me these things I would have been excited for Christ. Dragging my feet behind every preacher wanting my corpse to rot in the "hopes of another world" but its the Hope OF "Him" while in "this world" yet despite it the obtaining of the one to come.

Shoot if I shared that right in attempting use of a few of my own words which I hate using lol Laughing

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God love ya In Him Starlaa

Zathrus · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:08 am Post subject:

Mojo,
At the time Paul wrote that, he had not apprehended. I do believe we today have what Paul still waited to apprehend. In this passage as well as the others we've looked at, Paul said this is how he hoped to attain to the resurrection:

MoJo · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:06 pm Post subject:

The font is showing normal, but in preview it's large, so I just wanted you to know if the letters come out huge in the post, it's not me whose done it, but the twilight zone. lol!

zathrus, are you saying that because Paul died before the plan was completed in 70 AD, he could not apprehend to what those who came after would, which is described as righteousness through the faith of Christ?

MoJo · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject:

I just wanted to add that this does not mean that a lot of what else has been said isn't true. It just means that these other things and the resurrection of the dead are not one and the same thing.

Obviously, if we have Christ in us, our mortal bodies are quickened; the spirit in us is raised in heavenly places just by the fact he is in heaven, but this is not the same thing as resurrection.

Also star, on one point I will kinda disagree with you and that's in the narrow definitions you allow on some words. As an example, everytime the word END is used in scripture, I don't believe this is always speaking of Christ. Other things have an end as well. What I am trying to say is that even though broadly Christ is the beginning and the end, there are things within this that have there own end. Natural Israel's end, for instance, is one end that is also spoken off. Christ is the end of our faith, but in some of these end times discussion, I am trying to understand what has to have an end to get to the end that is Christ.

Very Happy

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matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Star · Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2005 7:47 pm Post subject:

Mo,

You wrote,

However, aside from that, my point was that anyone maintaining that resurrection means Christ in you whilst still in this life, would be saying that Paul could not have had Christ in him; otherwise Paul would not have spoken of attaining to the resurrection.

Resurrection cannot mean Christ in you in this life. Do you see the dilemma?? If you believe you are resurrected in Christ through faith whilst in this flesh, then you are maintaining that Paul could not have had Christ in him.

Star replies,

Obviously Christ had been revealed to Paul before He preached the gospel. He's now walking them through and helping expound these things to others. Faith is the substance of things hoped for which is Christ in them (beforehand they were as children) now they are Sons. There shows to me the fight of faith (trial of faith) whereas they overcome the evil one. This was between "wicked men" but not of flesh and blood but principalities and powers in heavenly places. These are said to be wicked "for not having faith" but these were not those outside of the religious circles. These were of their own households still resisting the Spirit of grace to follow after works of the flesh, which cannot please God.

Here they were given over to death that the life of Christ can be revealed in them, this time is does ""not hurt"" them ( O death where is thy sting?). When He is weak then he is strong and the power of Christ rests upon them. Paul died once by the law and for Christ was given over to death that life of Christ might work in others. To me receiving the end of your faith means even faith has an author and a finisher amen? For example under the law they had none UNTIL it is revealed in them, the deposit or sorts of what is to come. Resurrection is Christ, so is The End, or Our Salvation, or our Hope, or our Glory etc. these are words attributed to Him, these also are not dead hopes by lively hopes, expressed many various ways.

Ok, think about it this way Mo... say I'm wrong, off my rocker and completely misguided what of it? Being that in this springs forth both hope (which is purifying) faith (which is awaesome) and consumation of love of God in that one dare to hope for now... Will such a thing disqualify one, being that hope in the power of God which worked in Christ would work in us as well? What wrong effect could be in such a hope? This then makes sense to flee to take hold of that which we are laid hold of by Christ, not that "one day when I'm buried down the street a trumpet sound type thing. Thats just not ringing true no matter how carefully its laid out. Could such a passion in pursuit of Him be a let down despite a possible misconception? I believe quite to the contrary.His words are Spirit as He is Spirit and the Spirit is the Truth. Paul speaks of His glory being revealed, theres a glory Hes it, same thing is told Martha at the tomb but she (I take this spiritual as well) had a carnal perspective (The dead literal carcus) Lord, " he stinketh". He told her if she believed she would see His glory. The same napkin over His face is removed and expressed by Paul as an "Open face beholding the glory of the Lord". being CHANGED from glory unto glory by the Spirit of the Lord. The words are laced everywhere throughout. Paul knew Gods judgment was already present, he awaited what he was sure of was a crown (on that day). He desired to depart and be with the Lord, he said nothing that he was going to die and be ressurected then, but to depart and be fully with Christ. Its not a contradiction, He is both in Paul but Paul knew He would put off his tabernacle and be with the Lord in Spirit. I wrote this a bit freehand here Mo, I might need be corrected on dotting my I's and crossing my T's here no doubt. But thats my two cents (you know it by now I always have two cents to spare lol)

I love this too Mo its at the beginning of the gospels (I know it). I know you understand that "babe leaping" in you and have used that as reference to the life within you as you know it to be so. This then I'm using to show the same thing.

Even in Luke 2:26 And it was revealed unto him """by the Holy Ghost""", that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

Rev 2:16... I am... the bright and morning """star""

Rev 2:28 I will give him the morning """star"""

2Peter 1:19 until the day dawn (in you) and the day """star""" arise in your hearts:

Mat 2:10 When they saw the """star""", they rejoiced with exceeding great joy.

Now the switch...

1Peter 1:8 ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory (Context 1Peter 1:10 salavation)

again...

Rev 22:13 I AM the beginning and """the end"""

Rev 2:17 in the stone (Christ) a """new name written""" which no man knoweth saving he that """"RECEIVETH IT"""

1Peter 1:9 RECEIVING """the end"" of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.

Then """THE END"""" SHALL COME?? Endure to """THE END""" RECEIVING""" THE END""

IS CHRIST COME... These are worded as such to cause us to think. He who IS The Beginning and the End is WITHOUT Beginning or End, YET He COMES (AS) """THE END""" Which is which was Which is to come to us all always. Very Happy

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God love ya In Him Starlaa

Rosered · Alley Cat Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 179

Hi to all ,
to me this is why Paul said , these words.not knowing yet , but depended on God to fulfil ..

1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time

an untimely birth[to wound ] seeing Him growing in the grace of God called and Chosen to become a bondservant of Jesus Christ , obtaining That growth and ressurection to do the Will of God completly and fully the high heavenly calling ,,

Phl 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the((( high calling of God)) in (((Christ Jesus))).

Hbr 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the(( heavenly calling,))) consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession,(( Christ Jesus)));

because Jesus Christ Himself said this ,,,

Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain((( that world))), and the resurrection from the dead,

neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

((((Neither can they die any more)))): for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God,

being the children of the resurrection.

seeing that world age ,,,aion.,, period of time, age perpetually, incessantly duration

invariably, at any and every time: when according to the circumstances something is or ought to be done again

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto ((the end))), the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto ((the end)), the same shall be saved.

seeing the Spirit and soul that God has joined together in Heb 4 is the rest and the Works of God Himself , belief totally in Him .....
love in Him , rose
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Jesus is the reward !

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:02 am Post subject:

Kinda like the glory that Moses had and he had to wear a veil because he shone too bright?

just thinking...
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Rosered · Alley Cat Joined: 13 Aug 2005 Posts: 179

YEAH lONE , IT SEEMS THAT VALE , VEIL HIDES , COVERS

2Cr 3:13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which [vail] is done away in Christ.
2Cr 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

LOVE IN hIM SIS , rose
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Jesus is the reward !

Zathrus · Posted: Sun Oct 02, 2005 9:25 am Post subject: