Eschatology discussion - Preterism/Dispensationalism

Zathrus

I'm opening this thread to continue a discussion started in the Debate Forum under another topic.

Coburn · Little Hamster Joined: 04 Jun 2005 Posts: 75

Zathrus,

Great points about the temple. God destroyed the temple and Old Covenant system and man wants to rebuild them.

I once read an article about an attempt to rebuild the temple in the 4 th century (I think) that was abandon because of gases seeping out of the ground and then exploding. Something like that anyway, I'm not sure if its a true account or not.

If the temple ever is rebuilt though, I'm converting to Islam Wink

Cheers,

Coburn
_________________
"There are very many who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." Saint Augustine

Zathrus · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:09 am Post subject:

Coburn, good to hear from you. There's been a lot of great discussion lately in your "Preterist Woes" thread.

I've heard of attempts in the last century to rebuild the temple, but obviously the Muslims who now control that piece of land are not permitting it. I think there's Biblical significance to that. It sort of reminds me of Galatians 4, and who are the spiritual children of Isaac, and who are the spiritual children of Ishmael. If the temple were successfully rebuilt, to me it would not in any way indicate a fulfillment of any prophecy. And I'd bet a paycheck that if it's ever rebuilt, there will be no cloud of glory filling it when it's finished.

And I think it'd be safe to bet that the dispensationalist expectation of Levites resuming animal sacrifices in it will never happen, because since the Babylonian captivity, and all the scattering and intermarriage that has gone on since, it's my understanding that it's no longer possible to tell who is descended from Levi! Over the years of Israel's being in captivity, the geneological records were lost!

I started this thread to continue a discussion with Robert, who is a dispensationalist who posted here for a while and posed some very challenging questions for me regarding preterism. I reponded to all of his questions, and then I asked if I could do likewise and pose a few questions for him to address. But he seems to have left us. I've seen no new posts from him in weeks now. Sad

I wish him well.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!

2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

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lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:28 am Post subject:

was it ever really about a physical temple though?

God says he does not live in houses built by mens hands.

know ye not that YE are the temple.

Is God interested in building a physical structure or a building of believers?

something about looking at the outward appearance of things and not the spirit by which God searches things.

Eph:2:19: Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
Eph:2:20: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Eph:2:21: In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
Eph:2:22: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

so the question remains: will the true temple ever be finished?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Zathrus · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 10:56 am Post subject:

A very good point, lone traveller. The dispensationalist teaching that the earthly temple will be rebuilt denies the Bible's teaching that we are the temple of God.
A dispensationalist may counter that with "Yes, the Gentile believers are a spiritual temple, but Israel will have its rebuilt earthly temple!" But in the very passage from Ephesians that you quoted, Paul specifically says that this spiritual temple is comprised of both Jew and Gentile believers, so the dispensationalist teaching that Israel has a separate eschatological hope than the church is shown to be false.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!

2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."

Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451

Star · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject:

Mark 14:57 And there arose certain, and bare FALSE WITNESS AGAINST HIM, saying,

This is misconstruing Jesus words and the scriptures call them false witnesses Shocked

Mark 14:58 We heard him say, I will DESTROY THIS TEMPLE THAT IS MADE WITH HANDS, and within three days I WILL BUILD ANOTHER MADE WITHOUT HANDS.. Shocked

sounds like many today.

Mark 14:59 But ((( neither so did their witness agree together.)))

Mat 26:60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, [yet] found they none. AT THE LAST came TWO FALSE WITNESSES

Again, another false witness

Mat 26:61 And said, This [fellow] said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

TO ME??? This is a TYPE of falsewitness OF THE RESURRECTION (Paul spoke about being found a false witness of Christ and these above speak to the very thing that I see today as well.

Paul points two the two false witnesses in TYPE HERE...

2Titus 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is ((( Hymenaeus and Philetus)))

2Titus 2:18 Who CONCERNING THE TRUTH (CHRIST) have ERRED, saying that THE RESURRECTION IS PAST ALREADY; and ((( overthrow the faith of some.)))

But THIS is what Jesus really said...

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

But this is how they "heard it"

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

John clarifies

John 2:21But he spake of the temple of his body.

Isaiah 6:2 After two days will he revive us: IN the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Paul speaks of the lively hope and the knowing Him and the power of His resurection and the raising of the dead in the present. Although we know His works are finshed and he arose he still raises up in Him by His power. Thats how I see it. Not something in "the past" but something He has done yet I'm to lay hold of and apprehend in myself what He laid hold of me for, and this is shown by Paul.

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday To day and for ever Very Happy

who was and who IS and who is to come.

Zath, I think I scared Robert off with my goblygook Laughing

_________________
God love ya In Him Starlaa

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:11 pm Post subject:

sure it wasn't the mishmash? Wink

_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

MoJo · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 5:18 pm Post subject:

Zathrus and Coburn, I'm curious how you would answer Lone's question. Will the temple ever be finished or do you see it as having already been finished at some point ????

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

golfjack · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject: Charismatic's view of end times

Hi all, I am a born again, spirit-filled believer, who believes: THIS IS MY BIBLE, I BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS ABOUT ME, I BELIEVE WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS I CAN HAVE. I am a Word of faith kind of guy, who simply puts his trust in the Word of God.

I am a pre-millennialist. However there are several other thelogical positions concerning the return of Christ in relationship to His millenial reign. These schools of thought are the result of different approaches to interpreting Revelation 20 :1-6, the most significant passage on the millennium.

POSTMILLENIAL: The postmillinnial position says that Jesus will return at the end of the millinnium. Postmillinnialists contend that we are presently in the millinnium. The postmillinnial school focuses greatly on scripture verses in which metaphors are used. For example, Jesus said that the kingdom of God is like yeast (Matt. 13:33; Luke 13:20-21). A postmillennialist would immediately say that this means we are presently in the millinium and that the kingdom of God is going to take a thousand years to work itself into every area of society and eventually take over the world so that good conquers evil. Similar interpretations are made of the parable of the sower (Matt. 13:1-9;Mark 4:1-20; Luke 8:4-15), the parable of weeds amomg the wheat (Matt. 13:24-30, 37 -43) and the parable of the dragnet (Matt. 13:47-50). In the parable of the sower, the postmillennialist says that the seed is the kingdom, and ultimately it will take over the world. In reality the seed is the Word of God and works only in those who hear and obey (Matt. 13:23). In both the parable of the weeds and the parable of the dragnet, scriptures are interpreted by postmillennialists to say evil is overcome gradually by good. But Jesus was refering to a day of judgement when angels would be called upon to separate the children of God from the children of Satan. In order to preserve their point of view, liberal postmillenialists have to ignore statements from Jesus such as, The love of many shall wax cold (in the end times) (Matt. 24:12). A postmillennialist would believe that we are presently in the millennium or about to usher it in, and when we have finished Possessing the land, we will bring about the second coming of Christ. In other words, they believe that the Kingdom of God has arrived and we are presently ruling and reigning with Christ.

I believe that there are dangers of postmillennial eschatology. In evangelical reconstructionism as the belief that Christians have the mandate from God to reconstruct society by strictly instituting the civil code of the law of Moses over the governments of the world. The error in this thinking is the belief that man's efforts can create a perfect government which will usher the return of Christ. In reality Jesus said everything would get worse and the love of many wuld grow clod (Matt. 24:12).

A STRONG WARNING FROM THE PAST: Finis Jennings Dake, one of the most outstanding thelogical thinkers of his day offers us a strong about postmillenial thelogy. Dake says the doctrine of the apostles until the third century when a thelogian named Origen SPIRITUALIZED THE wORD. fROM THAT TIME ON, MANY CEASED TO BELIEVE IN A LITERAL RETURN AND AN EARTHLY REIGN OF CHRIST. Dake says that not until the Reformation was the biblical concept of a literal millenium restored. He adds, the theory of postmillennialism is dangerous and unscriptural. It would have us substitute man and his works for the work of God. It would have us believe that man is going to usher in his own millennium and secure his own happiness by his own efferts. This was a widely held school of thought until 1900. Since the postmillennialist believes we are in the millennium, they interpret this to mean that Satan has been restricted in his activities. But those who maintain a high view of the inspiration of scripture see no need to interpret it in any other way but literally. Satan is clearly not bound or restricted in the present affairs of humanity.

CHARISMATIC THELOGY AGREES WITH SCRIPTURE: WE ARE MORE THAN CONQUERORS THROUGH CHRIST JESUS (Rom. 8:37).

In closing this post it is very important to note that all major charismatic prophesy teachers are premillennialists who believe in a literal millennial reign of Chrisat. These teachers agree with and quote mainline evengelical prophesy teachers.

I hope this post helps to explain my belief that there will be a rapture and also a second coming of Jesus Christ. (LORD OF LORDS, KING OF KINGS).

Have a great day in the Lord, golfjack

Star · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject:

Golfjack? huh? who are all these people your pointing to?

Dake says the doctrine of the apostles until the third century when a thelogian named Origen SPIRITUALIZED THE wORD. fROM THAT TIME ON, MANY CEASED TO BELIEVE IN A LITERAL RETURN AND AN EARTHLY REIGN OF CHRIST. Dake says that not until the Reformation was the biblical concept of a literal millenium restored. He adds, the theory of postmillennialism is dangerous and unscriptural.

Star replies,

Spiritualize the word? Laughing

The Word IS Spirit, the SPIRIT IS TRUTH, The LORD SAITH THAT. Just because it is SPIRIT makes it no less LITERAL.

I havent a clue concerning the "doctrines of men" I can't even understand what you are talking about while bearing witness "of them". These terms and categories used by men? Not a clue, its chinese to me. Perhaps you have the gift of tongues.

What would the reign of Christ "look like" to you?

In Him
Stream
_________________
God love ya In Him Starlaa

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 7:16 pm Post subject:

golfjack · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 8:24 pm Post subject: reply

Hi there, If you are asking if I pray in tongues, yes I do. Can I interpret tongues,sometimes. Yes, I read certain books about Church History. Do I believe them? It's like asking me if I believe that George Washington was the president. Remember, When listening to a preacher, we can have discernment. History is history, and the Bible is Bible. Of course, the Word is Jesus Christ. At Pentacost, the Holy Spirit was sent to the apostles and others in the room. They were all empowered by the Holy Spirit.

Right now, I don't rule anyone, but during the one thousand years, the redeemed will rule and reign with Christ. Postmillennialism is the idea that We are ruling right now. My Bible tells me that Satan is the ruler of the world now, but we as believers don't don't have to live in his world. We have been transformed out of darkness into the light of our Lord Jesus Christ. Then the question is, who are we to rule? We rule over the ones that survived the great Tribulation and their children. Yes, there is much symbols used in the book of revelation. Therefore to believe that we are ruling and ruling and reigning with Christ right now, is not only unbiblical, but nonsense.

May God bless, golfjack

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:50 pm Post subject:

what is it we are going to rule and when?

Lk:12:42: And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
Lk:12:43: Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Lk:12:44: Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

2Cor:10:13: But we will not boast of things without our measure, but according to the measure of the rule which God hath distributed to us, a measure to reach even unto you.
2Cor:10:14: For we stretch not ourselves beyond our measure, as though we reached not unto you: for we are come as far as to you also in preaching the gospel of Christ:
2Cor:10:15: Not boasting of things without our measure, that is, of other men's labours; but having hope, when your faith is increased, that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly,
2Cor:10:16: To preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man's line of things made ready to our hand.

1Tm:5:17: Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

Heb:13:7: Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Rv:20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rv:20:6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

need to do a study on thrones...

Rv:4:4: And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold

Rv:14:3: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Rv:5:9: And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rv:5:10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rv:22:1: And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Rv:22:2: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rv:22:3: And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
Rv:22:4: And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Rv:22:5: And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Rv:22:6: And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

So we have Kings, Priests, and judges. Interesting to check out the books of deut. and kings, leviticus... maybe they give us a preview of things to come.. Or maybe we can learn from past mistakes??

just some thoughts...

Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

Coburn · Little Hamster Joined: 04 Jun 2005 Posts: 75

The Temple had to go

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

The destuction of the temple was the final act of Christs redemptive work that put away the sacrifical system and began His "once for all time" reconciliation. It was the manifestation of Him "fulfilling all that was written". The gospel was already being mingled with the Old system laws durring the transitional period of the Covenants, so without the destruction of the temple the old system would have been incorperated into the new.

In Heb 8:13 it says the Old Covenant is "ready to vanish away", which it did when the "Capital" of that system was destroyed; the temple :

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Concerning the Temple :

Heb 9:9-11 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

Rebuilding the temple would be regressing back to the law, which Paul encouraged his followers not to do.

Is the New Temple complete ? I believe it was completed in 70 AD. Man was unable to reconcile himself to God through the law, he simply failed. Under Christ, all are reconciled to God by "not imputing their trespasses unto them", which leaves Paul to beg "be ye reconciled" :

2Co 5:19-21 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Cheers,

Coburn
_________________
"There are very many who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments." Saint Augustine

Zathrus · Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:43 am Post subject: