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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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 Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 9:50 am Post subject: |
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| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | . . .This is a loaded question, and one like my kids come up with, "How come you love HIM more than you love ME?!?!" And I'm supposed to answer that?
Come on, gimme some hard stuff to answer.  |
Does the god of the Bible have free will?
Is responsibility contingent on the possession of free will for any given entity, some but not others, or none?
Last but not least, why do you keep posting in the face of FFT demonstrating you're dodging valid questions but at the same time childishly dodging FFT's questions yet again with each new post? |
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t-shirtsnjeans
Big Goldfish
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 10:25 am Post subject: |
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Define 'valid' questions.
Perhaps "why is the sky blue," or "have earthworms really digested the entire planet at one time or another"?
And why are you standing up for fft? He/she can answer his/her own questions or defend his/her stand. If I'm making things hard for him/her he/she should speak up. |
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unschoolmom
Kitten
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Posts: 141
Location: Nova Scotia
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Quote: | unschoolmom wrote:
God does not kill them and in fact after passing judgement, clothes them. despite their crime that has so damaged the relationship between them and God and between each other, he cares and is compassionate. |
So a parent that clothes their children before throwing them out of the house is compassionate? Sorry, I don't think so. |
You can take a metaphor too far. Children is just a metaphor and of some use for talking about Adam and Eve but it the story, they weren't kids. These were two adults, fully capable of taking care of themselves.
I won't argue about death and childbirth. I think whether you view those as curses depends not on what is in Genesis but what you bring to Genesis. I don't see what you do in that story and I think that's just natural. I certainly see how you can interpret it the way you do, but I don't accept that view for myself. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5860
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:08 pm Post subject: |
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| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | This is a loaded question, and one like my kids come up with, "How come you love HIM more than you love ME?!?!" And I'm supposed to answer that?
Come on, gimme some hard stuff to answer. |
You did exactly what I predicted you would do. That's not a loaded question at all. Either I predicted it via the supernatural, or I predicted it completely naturally. So either "prophet," or "rational." I'm going to go with "rational," myself.
And again, you refuse to challenge my assertions with anything but handwaving. When you decide to actually participate in the debate, then I'll care about what you think. Until then, you're just doing what James1-26 did, just in a more childish way.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | And why are you standing up for fft? He/she can answer his/her own questions or defend his/her stand. If I'm making things hard for him/her he/she should speak up. |
Because it's obvious to (hopefully) everyone that you're just evading the questions at hand.
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| unschoolmom wrote: | | You can take a metaphor too far. Children is just a metaphor and of some use for talking about Adam and Eve but it the story, they weren't kids. These were two adults, fully capable of taking care of themselves. |
How were they adults? What rite of passage did they go through to become adults? They were innocent. They behaved exactly like children. They couldn't even resist a talking snake! |
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t-shirtsnjeans
Big Goldfish
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | t-shirtsnjeans: way to address, well, any of the responses I made. I'll try again.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | So I spank my kids before they do wrong? Or take away privileges? |
No. However, if you set up contrived circumstances which end in these results, you're responsible. Same as if you set up circumstances which don't end in these results.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | Does a cop give you a ticket before you speed? |
No, but the situation here is more like a speed trap.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | Again FFT is the sound my dead lawnmower makes, also the sound of a dead subject. God did not curse anyone before they deserved it. Are we clear?  |
As crystal. You didn't even try to refute my assertions, so apparently I'm right. Here they are again, though, if you want to actually participate in the debate at hand:
Your wife isn't going to trick you into eating something that will cause you heartburn.
The jeweler did not trick the thief into stealing his property. The jeweler did not know the thief was going to steal his property.
1. He let the serpent in the garden. Why would he do this when:
2. He's omniscient. He knew that the serpent would be convincing enough to get Eve to throw it all away.
3. He set up a series of events which ended in a curse upon Adam and Eve.
Therefore:
He cursed them.
If you can address my points, please, have at it. However, your past behavior leads me to believe that you won't. |
"He 'let' the serpent in the garden...." um, free will given to those He choses, including the serpent, but only to a point. Read Job. Satan wanted to test God's servant Job, God said "Go ahead, but don't hurt him", then the other tests came.....well, you know how that all came down.
2. God allowed Adam to have free will even before the 'curses' that were put upon man due to the deception to Eve.
3. If I sell you a gun, you go out and kill an innocent person, am I the one that cursed you to prison?
Get real, this isn't a challenge, but I did stoop to answer your weak questions.
I'm quite sure you don't have kids yet, but if you did, and you tried to teach them not to do something or they would get punished, and they did what you told them not to, would you follow through? Or are you a weak person towards your children letting them run things around your world?
God said it, gave options so that free will has meaning, and when Eve and Adam ate of the tree God just followed through, just like golf or basketball or any other sport or good parenting, follow through is just as important as the point itself.
Are we happy campers now? I am |
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t-shirtsnjeans
Big Goldfish
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and to find this on another post, FFT, if you challenge me and EXPECT me to back up my views YOU had better be prepared to back up your assertions of you 'views' on the topics. Here's your post:
In order to find a single verse to back up your point, I'm to reread a 700,000 word book? No thanks. The first time I read it was for pleasure. I'm not going to do it again on a whim.
You challenge me on a whim. Should I just answer your 'whims' for the sake of you trying to offend instead of defend?
Sorry pal, research before you preach. That's what I'm told by others when I throw in my viewpoints. |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 596
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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FFT,
Just wanted to give my thoughts on the Adam & Eve situation. If you remember correctly, the tree of life was also in the garden. God did not tell them not to eat of that tree. They were allowed to do that. They had eternal life w/God in their Garden. The only tree they were not allowed to eat from was the Tree of Knowledge. He did warn them beforehand that if they did eat of it, they would die. If they ate of this tree, they would know what real evil was like & I believe He wanted to protect them from that.
Reason for expulsion from the garden? Pretty simple really, in my mind. This is where the tree of life was. If they were sentenced to die eventually, they would not be allowed access to this tree. He had to have them removed so they couldn't be tempted again to eat of it & then He had it guarded so they couldn't return.
As far as God's curses/judgments, what-have-you, when we start saying what was fair/unfair for God to do, we start to limit Him. He is the Almighty. He can do anything He chooses to do. He has no limits. He's the ultimate one in charge. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5860
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | "He 'let' the serpent in the garden...." um, free will given to those He choses, including the serpent, but only to a point. |
So? Why did he create a being he knew would be able to make Eve stray?
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | If I sell you a gun, you go out and kill an innocent person, am I the one that cursed you to prison? |
Invalid comparison. The person selling the gun does not have control over my environment.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | Get real, this isn't a challenge, but I did stoop to answer your weak questions. |
Hardly.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | I'm quite sure you don't have kids yet, but if you did, and you tried to teach them not to do something or they would get punished, and they did what you told them not to, would you follow through? Or are you a weak person towards your children letting them run things around your world? |
No. I'm not going to punish my children for things I know they're going to do. I'm going to teach them why they shouldn't do things, not just arbitrarily state that they aren't allowed.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | God said it, gave options so that free will has meaning, and when Eve and Adam ate of the tree God just followed through, just like golf or basketball or any other sport or good parenting, follow through is just as important as the point itself. |
Sure. But you'd be hard pressed to find a child psychologist that says that the way to teach your children not to do things is to punish them absolutely.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | Oh, and to find this on another post, FFT, if you challenge me and EXPECT me to back up my views YOU had better be prepared to back up your assertions of you 'views' on the topics. |
You have to actually challenge my assertions first. And I've backed up my own assertions.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | Here's your post: |
| FFT wrote: | | In order to find a single verse to back up your point, I'm to reread a 700,000 word book? No thanks. The first time I read it was for pleasure. I'm not going to do it again on a whim. |
This was pointed at jim stevenson, not you. I posted this because he was not backing up his assertions with anything but evasions.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | You challenge me on a whim. Should I just answer your 'whims' for the sake of you trying to offend instead of defend? |
Not quite. I challenge you because I know you can't respond with anything that actually refutes my points. Prove me wrong.
| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | Sorry pal, research before you preach. That's what I'm told by others when I throw in my viewpoints. |
I have done my research. It's all in Genesis 2 and 3. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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You guys and gals fail to understand, just as Adam & Eve failed to understand the severity of eating of this one purpously placed tree, that Adam and Eve could not comprehend what a punishment was, as they had never experienced any thing to the sort.
A & E did not gain understanding until they ate of the tree, and God knew this perfectly well, so Him placing this tree in the middle of Eden was just part of His way to make sure we would have understanding. Not that I really understand why He had to go through creating this tree and have A & E to eat of it to punish them.
It would have been more honest to just tell them; "Well, I think I'll change the rules for you, here's the new deal"
Fake |
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t-shirtsnjeans
Big Goldfish
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Tue Oct 18, 2005 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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Ok, let's pretend for a moment that I'm not God.
Well, hmm, I couldn't even pretend for a microsecond that I was at all close to being God much less any point of me understanding why God does what He does.
Should I challenge God? He said "DO not tempt the Lord your God!" So, do I do what I'm not supposed to do to prove a point to you or anyone else? Nah, it wouldn't do me or you any good and it will put a bad mark (another one) on my record with Him.
Since you really don't wanna read the Bible again on a 'whim' let's just say that all you need to know is in the Bible, and through discernment with the acceptance of the Holy Spirit (the interpretor) you should be able to understand.
As it stands I could talk day and night for the next three thousand years about the same topic that only one that has accepted the Holy Spirit understands to one who has not accepted and does not understand and will NEVER understand or comprehend.
I have better things to do than trying to convince a non-believer to believe in anything. This is much like an atheist trying to convince me that God doesn't exist. The atheist will be wasting his/her breath and will probably have better things to do also.
If you don't want to take anything at the value given that's not my problem. Have you heard of 'like mindedness'? Somewhere in that Book is something mentioned 'Where two or more are gathered in My name......' and in agreement 'I will also be...'. There has to be agreement, and we ain't there yet.
All I can say for now is 'apples and oranges', you won't take anything a Christian says as truth, and a Christian will not take anything about atheism as truth.
Good day |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5860
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 1:07 am Post subject: |
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| t-shirtsnjeans wrote: | | Ok, let's pretend for a moment that I'm not God. |
Let's pretend for a moment that you're evading the points I brought up ...
Wow! It's so easy! Almost like I don't even have to pretend! |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 6828
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | You guys and gals fail to understand, just as Adam & Eve failed to understand the severity of eating of this one purpously placed tree, that Adam and Eve could not comprehend what a punishment was, as they had never experienced any thing to the sort. |
This one statement coalesces the fallacious assumptions being made in order to deflect the blame of descision made through free will.
I've been alive for quite a few years and I have 'experienced' a lot of things, but I have also NOT experienced a lot of things, but that does not keep me from understanding the meaning, severity, or import of actions or decisions I make which would result in those things happening.
The accusers of God in this argument continue to say that poor Adam and Eve had no understanding, they were but 'children' and no concept of death and that it was unfair of God to put them out if they did not understand.
Of course that is all an assumption of what they did or did not understand. How sophisticated they were or were not, how much knowledge they had or had not. It belies the fact that they had walked and talked with God in the cool of the day (for how many years or eons we cannot know), and that just being in converstation with Him has to have some effect on one's intellect. Nothing in scripture tells us that God did not make something cease to exist in the garden of Eden, and to assume anything in order to place a poorly constructed blame is folly. |
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Fake
Tiger
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 862
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:54 am Post subject: |
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JP, there was no bad before A & E ate of the forbidden tree, not even predators ate meat. A & E had never experienced death, sadness, deciet, anger or any such thing, they had no understanding of that the consequence of eating of the tree could harm them, as that concept didn't exist until they tasted the gifts of the tree.
Fake |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5860
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | | It belies the fact that they had walked and talked with God in the cool of the day (for how many years or eons we cannot know), and that just being in converstation with Him has to have some effect on one's intellect. |
Can you support this stance with scripture? |
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 596
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| Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:48 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | RevJP wrote: | | It belies the fact that they had walked and talked with God in the cool of the day (for how many years or eons we cannot know), and that just being in converstation with Him has to have some effect on one's intellect. |
Can you support this stance with scripture? |
Don't mean to jump in here, but I think we can infer from Genesis 3:8-24 that when the statement is made that God was walking in the Garden & then He proceeded to talk to them about what they'd done, this was a regular thing that He normally did. What makes this time different was the fact that they knew they did something wrong & were afraid to face Him. |
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