5 arguments for the existence of God

stuey

This excerpt has been quoted from the following website:
http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-pigliucci0.html

These are the opening remarks of Dr. William Lane Craig, in a debate with Dr. Massimo Pigliucci on the existence of God. I believe they form a solid, rational basis for the belief in God, and I'd love to hear some comments on the arguments.

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<snip>

See this link for the text that used to appear here. http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/craig-pigliucci1.html

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To read the rest of the debate, just click on the link at the top of this post.

[This message has been edited by stuey (edited 01-31-2003).]

Nobby

Hi Stuey,
I've read your post, It's interesting, I think I'll go along with #5 I believe in God's Word.
Stuey, I got a favor to ask of you?
At the top of your post you pasted a link to all of this and a lot more.
When you do that everyone can go there and read it. There's no need for pasting the whole thing here. Just the link and & your thoughts on the subject. Ok? Thank you.

God Bless You,
Nobby

[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 01-27-2003).]

stuey

Thanks for the advice Nobby. I'll remember that for next time.

Like you, #5 has provided more than enough evidence for me - God continues to reveal Himself to me as I seek to know Him more. However, no matter how real this personal experience of God is to those of us who believe, for those who have not yet experienced God in this way, it is often not enough evidence. Nonetheless, for those that earnestly seek to find the living God, this evidence is proof that they will find Him.

I love the verse "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you" (James 4:8) What an amazing promise!

Stu

Nobby

quote:
Originally posted by stuey:
Thanks for the advice Nobby. I'll remember that for next time.

Thank you Stuey, I'm trying to cut down on the terrible long posts. If they're of your own making that's fine. But cut & post can get long in a hurry.
Stuey I could fix it before our admin. see's it! I'm much nicer than him!

quote
Quote:

I love the verse "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you" (James 4:8) What an amazing promise!

I love that verse also. It has been so true in my life.
I just read a post of yours in Bible Debate.
About the ark!
Way to go! I like your style.
We got to stand up to tho's who try to take away from God's Holy Word
Take care, & let me know. Ok?
------------------
Nobby

Jesus wept!

[This message has been edited by Nobby (edited 01-30-2003).]

Magnum PI

The first two arguments have already been put to rest years ago. They are just as fallacious today as they were then.

Perhaps it would be in your best interest to take a philosophy of religion class, then you won't have to post such ridiculous arguments that have already been refuted (and more than once and by more than one person/philosopher), time and time again.

The third argument, well that too is a logical fallacy (called 'Wishful Thinking,' among others).

And this last point, "In conclusion, then, we've yet to see any arguments to show that God does not exist..." this too is a logical fallacy (called 'Begging the Question,' among others). Besides, I've given plenty of arguments to show that God does not exist (namely, 'The Problem of Evil' thread). I have yet to see you respond to any one of them.

MPI

[This message has been edited by Magnum PI (edited 01-28-2003).]

Ryck · Lion King Joined: 05 Dec 2002 Posts: 1072

By Magnum PI:

quote:
The first two arguments have already been put to rest years ago. They are just as fallacious today as they were then.

I've not heard of that. Would you care to explain what you mean?

Fre

All you need to know about William Lane Craig http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/craig.shtml

Magnum PI

quote:
Originally posted by Ryck:
By Magnum PI:
I've not heard of that. Would you care to explain what you mean?

Those arguments in a nutshell are the Telelogical (Design) and Cosmological Arguments. It's basic 'Philosophy of Religion' Ryck. As I said, both of those arguments have been put to pasture a long time ago.

Also, Paul Draper (Assoc. Prof. of Phil. at FL Int'l Un.) has a well documented critique of Craig's Kalam Cosmological Argument you may want to look into. That is, presuming you haven't already.

MPI

stuey

quote:
Originally posted by Magnum PI:
The first two arguments have already been put to rest years ago. They are just as fallacious today as they were then.

I have not heard that these arguments have been refuted. Could you provide any sources for this?

quote
Quote:

Perhaps it would be in your best interest to take a philosophy of religion class, then you won't have to post such ridiculous arguments that have already been refuted (and more than once and by more than one person/philosopher), time and time again.

Again, until I see something to back up your claim that these arguments have been rejected by the entire philosophical community, I think they are valid arguments and an interesting topic for debate.

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The third argument, well that too is a logical fallacy (called 'Wishful Thinking,' among others).

I beg to differ. Do you think that objective moral values do not exist?

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And this last point, "In conclusion, then, we've yet to see any arguments to show that God does not exist..." this too is a logical fallacy (called 'Begging the Question,' among others). Besides, I've given plenty of arguments to show that God does not exist (namely, 'The Problem of Evil' thread). I have yet to see you respond to any one of them.

This last point was only part of the debate - I was not asserting that no one has ever shown any arguments that God does not exist.

I fully intend to respond to your post on the so-called "problem of evil". Just bear with me - time is a hard commodity to find these days...

[This message has been edited by stuey (edited 01-31-2003).]

Magnum PI

quote:
Originally posted by stuey:
I have not heard that these arguments have been refuted. Could you provide any sources for this?

As I stated above:

"Those arguments in a nutshell are the Telelogical (Design) and Cosmological Arguments. It's basic 'Philosophy of Religion'"

Just to name a few whom have refuted the aforementioned arguments include but are not limited to Paul Edwards (Prof. of Philosophy, author and editor of 'The Encyclopedia of Philosophy'), also mentioned above is Paul Draper, and most notably David Hume.

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I think they are valid arguments and an interesting topic for debate.

No offense, but it doesn't matter what you think. Unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that great minds like David Hume was wrong. Otherwise, what you think is only a matter of subjective (unsubstantiated) opinion.

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I beg to differ.

Go ahead and beg

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This last point was only part of the debate - I was not asserting that no one has ever shown any arguments that God does not exist.

Taken in context and the medium it was written/posted in, I read your statement that "we've yet to see any arguments to show that God does not exist" to mean those of us here, in this forum. Which in this case you would be wrong. If you mean "we've yet to see..." as a general statement then you would still be wrong. As history is replete with counter argument after counter argument rebutting the affirmative theist argument that God does exist.

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Just bear with me - time is a hard commodity to find these days...

Likewise. I finally got a new job (start Monday) so my time will be on short supply as well.

Until then...

MPI

[This message has been edited by Magnum PI (edited 01-31-2003).]

stuey

quote:
Originally posted by Magnum PI:
As I stated above:

"Those arguments in a nutshell are the Telelogical (Design) and Cosmological Arguments. It's basic 'Philosophy of Religion'"

Just to name a few whom have refuted the aforementioned arguments include but are not limited to Paul Edwards (Prof. of Philosophy, author and editor of 'The Encyclopedia of Philosophy'), also mentioned above is Paul Draper, and most notably David Hume.

In response to this I'd just like to provide a quote from yourself in the "Problem of Evil" thread.

quote:
Originally posted by Magnum PI:
Good for you and Ron for finding other people in the same or related fields whom disagree with Graham. Just because they disagree doesn't necessarily make Graham wrong (not all the time, that is ) It's no different than one PHD saying that a human being is present at conception and another equally qualified PHD saying a human being is not present until viability. Doesn't make either one right or wrong...that is for you to determine.

Similarly, the arguments of one philosopher (or three) don't by themselves prove another philosopher's (or many) point wrong (not always at least...

) I would say in regards to this that you shouldn't just take what other "great minds" have to say. I certainly haven't - I have read many opinions and arguments both for and against the existence of God, and I have come to the decision that my personal experience of Him cannot be explained away.

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No offense, but it doesn't matter what you think. Unless you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that great minds like David Hume was wrong. Otherwise, what you think is only a matter of subjective (unsubstantiated) opinion.

It may not matter to you, MPI, but it certainly matters to me (and to those that know me). That is one of the problems with posting on nameless, faceless websites. And I believe that what I think matters to God (although I don't think I'll get any medals for believing in Him...). Hume has some interesting arguments, but they are in no way conclusive to me. Philosophy is not like math - there aren't always only right or wrong answers. It is interpretation and thought (granted very deep thought), and men are not infallible. I think we all have great minds, we only choose to use them for different pursuits. Just because I am not a renowned philosopher does not eliminate me from the realm of debate about God's existence. Since I have real, personal & irrefutable (for me at least) proof about His existence in my life, I feel I am qualified to talk about Him and why I believe He exists. If my mind is not great enough for you to debate with, then that's fine. However please do not belittle my opinion, or that of others on this website. I don't reject your arguments just because I don't agree with you. I find it interesting to hear your take on this subject and I only hope to show you why I believe in God and what a difference that has made in my life.

[This message has been edited by stuey (edited 02-01-2003).]