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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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 Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Yes, and thinking immoral thoughts (lusting, for instance) is tantamount to immorality. Memmer what Jesus said about lust and adultery? |
I do remember that Jesus said lusting is tantamount to adultery. He did not say that thinking was. Lusting is the dwelling upon a thought. We should not lust, we cannot help but think. The moment we begin to think of sin (which is temptation), we should turn our eyes to Jesus.
| Quote: | | I think you mean to say that you are unrighteous and that Jesus is righteous |
No, I mean to say that my righteousness is the righteousness of Jesus (2 Cor. 5:21).
How can you deny this:
'...and everyone who believes in Him is justified from everything,' (Acts 13:39)
To be justified is to be righteous. Those who believe in Him are justified, they are righteous. The righteousness of Christ has been considered their own. They now share the righteousness of Christ.
| Quote: | | Right, insofar as we are of Faith, we are righteous. |
NO! Insofar as we have faith, we are righteous. If we haven't faith, we are not righteous. If we do not live by faith, we are not righteous. 'The righteous will live by faith' (Rom. 1:17); Those who have faith are declared to be righteous (Rom. 3:26).
Do you disagree that those who have faith are declared righteous and that the righteous will live by faith? Do you disagree with Paul?
| Quote: | | Correct, inasmuch as they are of Faith. |
Insomuch as they have faith they are righteous. Those who have faith are declared righteous; they are righteous (Rom. 3:26).
| Quote: | | Why did Paul bother to warn the just, as you would have it, of acting unjustly and of the consequences of such? |
He warned them that they were acting as if they were unjust. He warned them of the destination of the unjust. He told them that since they are just, they should act like it. He told them how the unjust act, and scolded them by demanding that they act as the just.
| Quote: | | But the just do not sin (1 john 3:8-9). |
The verb is in the present tense. It speaks of a continued action. The child of God does not continue in sin; he/she does not lead a life of habitual sin. They may occasionally sin, but they do not continue in this sin; indeed they cannot as they are children of God with the divine seed in them.
| Quote: | | Sure, to the extent that we are in Christ, we are just and righteous. Insofar as we sin, we are of the devil. You cannot deny this basic truth of scripture. |
I can very well deny it as it is against the idea of Scripture.
You have created this fallacious dichotomy of utmost confusion. When we sin we are children of the devil; when we do not sin, we are children of God. So we can be the devil's children, then God's children, then back to the devil's children ad infinitum...this is anti-Scriptural. We are either children of God, or children of the devil.
Jesus even discredits this idea. He says that 'If God were your Father, you would love me...you are of your father the devil.' He does not say that you are of your Father, God, but are now behaving as if you were children of the devil. He is not giving a both/and, rather an either/or. You are either children of God, or children of Satan.
John even testifies of this truth in the very passage you continue to quote. He says this is how you know God's children from the Devil's children. He does not say this is how you know if one is behaving at a particular time as God's children, or at another as the Devil's. He says that the one who does what is right is righteous (children of God) and the one who sins is of the Devil. He does not say the one who does right is behaving as a child of God, and the one who does wrong is behaving as a child of Satan. No, he says that the one who does righteousness is of God and the one who does evil is of Satan.
Scripture testifies that those who have faith are considered righteous, they are declared righteous (Rom. 3:26); they are no longer unrighteous. That those who have faith are children of God (Rom. 8:13); they are not children of Satan. They been transfered from the Kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of the Son (Col. 1:13); they do not reside in either/or depending upon their actions.
Concede this point my friend, you are up against Scripture. Nowhere will you find this dichotomy of dual citizenship in the kingdom of darkness and that of light depending upon actions; neither will you find it claimed that we are either children of Satan or children of God depending upon how we behave. We are either in the Kingdom of the Son and children of God or we are in the kingdom of darkness and children of Satan. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 5:38 am Post subject: |
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Meto,
Brevity, man!
That you have minsunderstood my position is surprising to me.
#1. I never said that our citizenship in Heaven depends on our actions. To the contrary, I have explicitly stated that it is our nature which makes us so.
# 2. You seem to agree that he who sins is of the devil. I would think that you would also agree that the act of sinning is a manifestation of the sin nature. Is it then your position that who do not sin, or will you admit that you are of the devil insofar as you have a sinful nature? Need I emonstrate from scripture that you have a carnal mind?
#3. Please don't play games. We all think sexually immoral thoughts, and they are immoral precisely becauses they involve our focusing on the flesh rather than the Spirit. So will you admit that 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 applies to you, or are you going to try to wiggle yourself out of this one?  |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:19 am Post subject: |
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Very well. Brevity. Would you deny that those who have faith are declared righteous, they are considered rigtheous, they are righteous.
Let us address this point. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:33 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Would you deny that those who have faith are declared righteous, they are considered rigtheous, they are righteous. |
Insofar as we are of faith, we are righteous with Christ. Insofar as we sin, we are unjust. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 7:49 am Post subject: |
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| So sometimes we are righteous and sometimes we are unrighteous? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:24 am Post subject: |
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| No, we are at once righteous and unrighteous, just as we are at once sinners and saints. All in all, we are presently wanting of righteousness. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 8:56 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | All in all, we are presently wanting of righteousness. |
So I (compete me; no use of synecdoche here) am not righteous? I am unrighteous? I am unjust?
So why then would God declare me righteous (3:26)? And why would God justify me freely by His grace (3:24)?
If I am not righteous, then God would not declare me as such. If I am not just, then it cannot be said of me that I am justified. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So I (compete me; no use of synecdoche here) am not righteous? I am unrighteous? I am unjust? |
Absolutely. There are none righteous, not even metothezero.
| Quote: | | So why then would God declare me righteous (3:26)? And why would God justify me freely by His grace (3:24)? |
We are declared righteous insofar as we partake in Christic Faith. Faith, as you know, is something that develops in us the more we forsake the flesh and walk after the Spirit. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Absolutely. There are none righteous, not even metothezero. |
Most definately.
There is none righteous, not even one; (Rom. 3:10)
But now, God's righteousness has been revealed...to all who believe...they are justified freely by His grace...declaring righteous the one who has faith in Jesus (21-26).
Read the context.
There is none righteous, none justified by the works of the law, BUT God has declared righteous and justified those who have faith.
| Quote: | | We are declared righteous insofar as we partake in Christic Faith. |
Apoc says, 'we are declared righteous insofar as we partake in Christic Faith.'
Paul says 'we who have faith are declared righteous'
I would agree with you that we are declared righteous 'insofar as we partake in Christic faith', yet I think you are meaning something different than I.
Partaking in Christic faith, expound upon this. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| Partaking in Christic faith: Surrendering one's carnal mind, fleshly will and desire, to God. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Partaking in Christic faith: Surrendering one's carnal mind, fleshly will and desire, to God. |
Scripture please.
| Quote: | | Faith, as you know, is something that develops in us the more we forsake the flesh and walk after the Spirit. |
Would you say that this developing faith within us is a 'Christic faith'? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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Romans 14:23 But he that doubteth is condemned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith; and whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
| Quote: | | Would you say that this developing faith within us is a 'Christic faith'? |
Yes. |
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metothezero
Tiger Cub
Joined: 13 Aug 2003
Posts: 791
Location: east texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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| So let me see if I can get this correct. The developing faith within us is a 'Christic faith'? Yes? Yes. So when one has a 'developing faith' they are partaking in this 'Christic faith'. Second question: if one's faith is not developing - they still have faith mind you - would you not say that this faith is 'Christic' as well? I mean they still have faith, it may not at the present time be developing, but it is faith, and we do not find within Scripture of faith proceeding from anything but God. You even quoted yourself that if it is not of faith it is sin...so what have you? |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:12 am Post subject: |
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| I'd say that Faith is like a seed. Even when it is not sprouting, it still exists. |
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apocatastasis
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Feb 2004
Posts: 1827
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| Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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My friend, let us revisit Ephesians 3, shall we?
Eph 3:13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Now, let us be good students of the Word, ok meto?
What does verse 15 mean, really?
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